Research and Discussion Forums

Bill Welch · Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 144 Location: Knoxville, TN

Hey guys, what would be a good source to start looking at for learning Messer fencing? I know a little about long sword, but know nothing about messer, or grosse messer.
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Brian Hunt · Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 969 Location: Price, Utah

Codex Wallerstein.

also, there is a messer manual found at http://schielhau.org/

Hope that helps.

I would also recommend a messer waster.
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Mike Cartier · Joined: 23 Sep 2002 Posts: 594 Location: USA Florida

nothing specifically on the Grosse Messer, i put together a little page with whatever i could find on it which is just a few pictures and the horrible picture of my broken messer. *sniff - sob*

Grosse Messer Pics
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Brian Hunt · Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 969 Location: Price, Utah

Hey Mike,

is that a false tang inside of pretend full hilt tang???

If it is, who made your messer? A good smith could forgeweld a new tang witha lapweld, but that will ruin the temper/heat treat of your blade, and I imagine the edge is now too thin to survive a new heat treat session. That sucks.

Brian Hunt
GFS.
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JeffGentry · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 1089 Location: Columbus Ohio

Hey Guy's

This may sound stupid, i was looking at the pic's Mike put up and the one look's more like Falchion's than messer's what is the diffrence between a Falchion and Grosse Messer(doesn't Grosse Messer translate to roughly Big Knife).

Jeff
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Brian Hunt · Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 969 Location: Price, Utah

If I understand it correctly, a messer has a knife like grip, a full tang with slab grips attached like a knives, a Falchion has a sword like grip, hidden tang, with a pommel. Other than that, I can't really see much of a difference. They are both single edged weapons with a blade that generally has a slight curve to it.

hope that helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS.
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JeffGentry · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 1089 Location: Columbus Ohio

Hey Brian

That was what i was wondering, i never realy thought about the pommel or figured a sword wouldn't have a slab grip it does make sense though, i have not seen either just picture's that is probably why i didn't notice the diffrence, looking at it know it does look like a Great knife, learn something new everyday.

Thank's

Jeff
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Derek Gulas · Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 66 Location: Washington USA

I've noticed that in all depictions I've seen of messers, they're always being used with one hand, despite their long grip. Does anybody know of a Fechtbuch that recommends using a double hand grip for this weapon?

Thanks,
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Brian Hunt · Joined: 23 Jan 2003 Posts: 969 Location: Price, Utah

one of the things to remember is that alot of our definitions for sword types/labels were created by museam curaturs who were more interested in the furniture end of the weapon, than the application end. I think this is probably part of what happened with the definition for the Messer and the Falchion.

Brian Hunt.
GFS.
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JeffGentry · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 1089 Location: Columbus Ohio

Hey Brian
I guess that does make sense most of us probably would have differentiated by the use and handling, i guess like in the old day's to me a sword is a sword and how to handle it is the more important thing.

Jeff
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JeanryChandler · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 10:55 am Post subject: Re: where to start for messer

I did a lot of research into this for a book I was working on for a role playing game.

I looked at surviving messers and falchions at museums, places like "myarmoury.com" and on numerous auction sites on the net. I found 26 messers and 14 falchions, ranging from the 13th century to the 17th (most were 15th or 16th century). The messers were always longer, usually at least 36" in overall length) and had more narrow blades, and longer guards, and usually have some kind of knuckleguard, often shaped like a clamshell or sometimes just a ring.

The falchions ranged from fairly thin to ridiculously wide (like the famous Conyers falchion allegedly used to slay the Sockbyrn 'wyrm' in the 13th century) to fairly narrow. Over time they seemed to make them shorter and shorter, until they became almost like little cutlasses. Falchions were made until the 17th century at least.

There are several woodcuts depicting messers used two handed, though I'm not sure about in the fechtbuchs.

So IMO there is more difference than just the pommels, but a lot of people dont agree with me.

I know John C. is working on an essay about Falchions which should clear a lot of this up.

Jeanry
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JeffGentry · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 1089 Location: Columbus Ohio

Well that is interesting, like i said i have only seen picture's never realy did any research on them i alway's thought a messer was more of a sized up knife more of short sword, i would have thought a falchion would be the longer of the two.

Jeff
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JeanryChandler · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: where to start for messer

here are a few of the messers at MyArmoury.com

http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/albums/aa_antique/normal_13421_a.jpg
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/albums/aa_antique/normal_24114MesserStyleOf1520b.jpg

this particularly nice example was 46" and weighed only 2.6 lbs (someone else was posting about this here to the ARMA forum quite a while back) It has sort of a pommel, which makes it somewhat out of the typical mainstream of the type.

http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/albums/userpics/normal_saber_16c.jpg

Jeanry
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Bill Welch · Joined: 04 Jun 2004 Posts: 144 Location: Knoxville, TN

Thanks Guys, I have looked at schielhau.org, but have not had the chance to look over the Codex Wallerstein yet. I was planning on either getting a messer waster, or making one.

I know that this should be a different thread but, what about a dussack, shouldn't they all be handled about the same?(dussack waster doesnt look hard to make) or is that the purpose of a dussack, as a practice weapon?
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Casper Bradak · Joined: 20 Sep 2002 Posts: 641 Location: Utah, U.S.

Yeah, a dussak was a waster of wood or leather for simulating messer/falchion type weapons. They apparently did some fairly hard contact sparring with the leather ones.
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