Research and Discussion Forums

[jeremy pace]

In a recent discussion with a sport fencing instructor he threw an interesting topic at me. We were talking about historical manuals and he mentioned a principle the Cossacks used called "The Moment." Apparantly it was a somewhat mystical technique where you feel the appropriate time to attack. I blew this off and told him he should look at some of the german/italian principles of timing and this statement/philosophy might not seem so mystical. But a question arises.... he wasnt able to provide me with his source, but he is somewhat of a historian in his own right. I wonder, are there russian texts out there? Was he maybe reading from just a history book? He told me it was an excerpt taken from an article on Cossack saber fighting but again could not remember the exact title. Any thoughts?
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Amor Vincit Omnia

[Jeffrey Hull]

If the Cossacks called some timing in their sabre-fighting something which translates as *the moment*, then perhaps it was simply equivalent to what the Germans called *Indes* (during, just-as, in-which).

So basically attacking as the foe attacks, but in a manner anticipatory of his move which counters him as you strike without being stricken.

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JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

[jeremy pace]

Right. I am familiar with Indes and all the different timing principals for German Lswd. My question is if there are any known manuals or source texts on the Cossacks or any russian/plainsmen related material. Sorry for the confusion. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
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Amor Vincit Omnia

[Jake_Norwood]

Cossacks, in their saber-wielding heyday, were rather removed from Russia and were more part of the Polish Republic.

There are a few books on "Old Polish Saber," but they're in Polish.

jake
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Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director

[Gene Tausk]

I too would be interested to know from where this individual acquired this knowledge. I have been looking (albeit halfheartedly) for fencing manuals in Russian or Ukrainian (or Church Slavonic for that matter) without success.

This sounds like another "I heard it from a friend's mother's father's cousin's uncle's..." sort of thing. I am also highly skeptical of anything attributed to the Cossacks nowadays since in modern Russia the Cossacks seem to be overtaking the Shaolin Monks for all sorts of stories of the "amazing" things that were apparently commonplace 200 years ago.

Russian and East Slavic languages were unfortunately reduced to written form somewhat late in the game as compared to Latin and Greek and the parent language of modern Slavic languages, Church Slavonic, was not really reduced to written form until the 800's when SS Cyril and Methodius created the Cyrillic alphabet when they preached to the Slavs (poor Methodius never got any credit.... <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> ) and translated the Bible into their language.

One of the earliest Slavic epics, "The Lay of Igor's Campaign," was not written until the 1100's. Compare that to Beowulf, written in 800.

With the Mongol invasions and other hazards from the 12th to the 15th centuries, Russia had many issues that Western Europe did not have and so fencing manuals are still lacking. This is not to say that such a beast does not exist and I certainly would love to try my hand at translating it, but so far, no luck. Tales like the one told by your sport fencing instructor friend, unfortunately, are all too common.

On a related note, however, my alma mater, Ohio State, has one of the largest collections of Medieval Slavic manuscripts in the world in the Hilandar reading room. I will be in Columbus for a few days this summer and will be visiting some of my old professors and make some inquiries.

Who knows?


-------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
DA ZDRASTVUJET ROSSIJA!!!
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------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
Free-Scholar
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
ARMA Forum Moderator

[jeremy pace]

Hey, thats great info/news Gene! I am excited to hear what you find.... I figured this was a urban sword folklore, but thats the beauty of having so many intelligent well informed people at your fingertips. All you need do is ask. Of course let me/us know what you dig up.
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Amor Vincit Omnia

[Jake_Norwood]

Gene! You benkart! You didn't tell me that about Ohio State!

That's big news. I might know where to look for a PhD...

Jake
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Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Deputy Director

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

OSU is a good school and the Columbus Study group would be more than happy to have you.


Jeff


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Semper Fidelis

Usque ad Finem

Grace, Focus, Fluidity

[Aaron Jones]

But we might force you to run TRoS after practice. Fair warning.

Aaron

[Gene Tausk]

"You didn't tell me that about Ohio State!"


That's the first time anyone has ever accused me of NOT talking about Ohio State! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

As you can tell from my posts, I am a rabid Buckeye!

Seriously, Ohio State has one of the best linguistics programs in the nation. Also, we have an excellent Slavic languages program (and the largest Romanian program in the U.S. - although Romanian is not Slavic, it is grouped with us). As mentioned, the Hilandar reading room is an amazing resource. Unless you plan to pay a visit to Mount Athos, the Hilandar room is the way to go. Most of the professors I studied under are now retired, but a few are still around.

Also, as Jaron pointed out, the Columbus study group is active and they have a great training facility.

As a Buckeye alum, we would be proud to have you.


--------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
Buckeye Fanatic
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------------->>>>>>>>>>>>>gene tausk
Free-Scholar
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
ARMA Forum Moderator

[Pavel Levchuk]

if somebody interesting about slovinian wariors and cossacs...
<img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> [èçîáðàæåíèå]http://C:\Documents and Settings\INTERNATIONAL1\Desktop\Pasha\ïàøà äîê\Îáðàçöû ðèñóíêîâ\001.JPEG[/èçîáðàæåíèå]
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PLevchuk