Research and Discussion Forums

[scott adair]

I had to opportunity to do some unarmed against dagger work today with an old friend and a number of things came up in the process.

First there is a tremendous size difference. I am 5'7" and weigh 126#'s. My friend is 6'2" and weighs 210#'s.

I had been working on dagger techniques from Jay's book with Martin, my now relocated ARMA training partner, and we had been progressing fairly well and were able to make the techniques work at a about 75% speed. Martin is about my size.

Against the standard reverse grip stab the left hand interception and 'twist of the wrist disarm' illustrated on pages 62 and 63 of Jay's book worked every time at full speed.

'Single hand cover and stab' from page 78 and 'Armpit trap and disarm' (pg 79) worked fairly well at full speed.

We threw in a few left and right slashes to the face and against these I tried Fiore's Crown position. This is where things got really interesting. When my attacker threw what I consider to be a powerful slash (remember I'm small) I could usually stop it and counter with a hammer fist to the head. When he really put all of his weight and mass behind the blow his momentum would knock me off balance. I found that I was having to do a lot of passing and zoning to keep from getting clobbered. Especially when it was'nt just a single attack but he followed it with a charge to really press me and use his weight. Against the thrust from below we found the same thing. A simple step and thrust are one thing; a committed charge is a horse of a different color. Are we training reallisticly? Are we missing something? I want answers.

I don't want my knife training to be half @$$!



Scott Adair

[Stewart Sackett]

I’m just getting started on dagger work myself & the guy I’m working with in my ARMA group is significantly bigger than I am. I find the best thing to do is to circle to the outside of his knife arm.

I don’t have the dagger book so I’ve been working mostly from the codex as well as drawing from a few modern sources. I quite like the S.T.A.B. (Survival Tactics Against Blades) curriculum which is knife defense based on Greco-Roman wrestling techniques. It has a decidedly western flare & is the essence of realistic training as everything is practiced against a genuinely resisting opponent. Having said that; there are significant differences between that curriculum, designed for unarmed defense against muggers & the like from close range, & historical knife fighting on battlefields or in duels where both combatants were likely to be armed & to see one another coming.

As for whether your training is realistic or not…I’d say that the more you can freeplay with daggers the more you’ll develop real skill. I’m a huge believer in freeplay as a primary training tool. No one should simply be attacking once & then waiting for a counter. Keep moving, maintain pressure, mix up your attacks & your counters. The other big thing is that in most real knife conflicts an attacker doesn’t stop after just one blow, so keep thrusting like your knife is the needle of a sowing machine stitching your opponent.

Hope that’s helpful.

[mike willus]

I'd say that first of all, no matter what your level of hand to hand combat abilities are, when someone attacks you with a knife, you need to expect to get cut. You are at an extreme disadvantage because obviously, they have a knife and you are unarmed.

Secondly, you have to take into account the fact that you are facing an opponent who weighs close to boudle your weight, and, has an enormous height/reach advantage. Basically, the odds aren't working for you here.

As a pro-fighter, people always ask me questions about what to do in a particular situation as though there is one golden answer that always works. Unfortunatly, most of the situations people want answers for are the types that they are losing.

When someone pulls a knife and makes for you with all due intentions for harm...you are allready losing. Now, with training, i think it is possible to start changing the odds to give yourself the best chance of victory or survival.

I think that free-sparring with the rubber knife or non-edged blade is probably the way to go. However, you have to consider this...it takes an athletic person say 6 months to 1 year of training 3-5 days per week for at least an hour per day for them to use brazilian jiu-jitsu effectivly.

Now, using bjj effectivly after 6 months is one thing, because its viability is premised on what one could consider a fair (1 on 1) confrontation.

Once you involve a weapon all the odds fly out the window. Personaly, I think that for my tastes it would be time better spent practicing with a weapon you intend to carry (knife, baton, brass knuckles, pistol, etc). Best bet against a drawn blade is always a speeding bullet.

[Mike Cartier]

dagger/knife is one of the hardest weapoins to freeplay with bbut generally i think the more chaos you have involved in your sparring the better. A good powerful attack with commitment is always a hard thingto deal with but i would just look towards yopur form.
We work with the stuff Jay has been showing us and i its all very sound leverage wise, if you are having trouble handling the power of it just look to your form and there is probably somewhere in there you can adjust to gain the power you need in your defense.

Sometimes though when you are dealing with a huge disparity in strength you have to realise some things are just goingto be very very hard against certain people. Try to make it to one of Jays dagger seminars too.
_________________
Mike Cartier
Meyer Frei Fechter
www.freifechter.com

[scott adair]

Thanks guys,

I hope to catch Jay in Houston next fall. I may try to get together with the DFW guys also.


Scott

[JeffGentry]

With the diffrence in size you may want to grab the dagger hand and get out of the way sort of redirect his energy, it is nothing mystical or anything, otherwise he will run right over you every time, foot work is extremely important when fighting with a dagger, and you might want to attack his dagger hand before he can attack you.

Jeff
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Semper Fidelis

Usque ad Finem

Grace, Focus, Fluidity

[Randall Pleasant]

[scott adair]

Thanks Ran,

I will look forward to it!


Scott



The DFW study group is planning on doing some dagger work soon using Jay's book. Ernie and I will keep you informed so that hopefully you will be able to join us.[/quote]

[Jay Vail]

[Michael Douglas]

[Eric Dohner]

I don't mean to intrude on a discussion on a subject about which I'm not very knowledgeable, but is it possible that in the time the fechtbuchs were written knife attacks happened differently from those that happen today?

For some reason, might knife/dagger attacks have been more likely to be committed or overcommitted, for some cultural or psychological reason (the same thing, really)? Growing up on a farm, I've done a lot of "cutting uncooked flesh with sharp knives," and know that it doesn't take much commitment or time to do a lot of damage.

(Edit: I meant to specify that I'm suggesting knife attacks may have happened differently for reasons other than the design of the knives themselves.)

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Eric,

ever tried to cut through multple layers of linen and wool? Europeans clothing was made of layers of these type of fabrics, plus sometimes they were stuffed like a gambeson. More layers to get through to find flesh. Plus on the streets of America today when someone attacks you with a knife it will generally be a strongly commited attack. To the best of my knowledge, the mindset of sparring seems to be different than the mindset of an attack.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS
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www.paulushectormair.com
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[JeffGentry]

[Jay Vail]

[scott adair]

Jay,

I like your comments about the tool box. Not everything works for everyone. This is especially true for those of us of smaller stature and I sometimes lose sight of this fact.


Thanks to all who have contributed. I have much to think about.


Scott