Research and Discussion Forums

[Anonymous]

I am reading Bart Walczak's translation of Lignitzer's Dagger via Danzig.
Frequenly they mention grips in reference to 'the disc' of the dagger. I know that many rondels have disc's as both hilts and pommels but I just wanted to make sure which is which in this case.

"The Third technique
When he has grasped his dagger so that the disc is at the thumb and thrusts..."

Also...
Are the illustrations for these passages lost?

[Sal Bertucci]

When it states it like that it almost always in talking about the "Pommel disk". As for the pictures, I don't have anything.

[Doug Marnick]

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_rondel.html

The above article is an interesting read.

In regard to your specific question, I can't comment on Lignitzer. Instead, I took a glance at my copy of Talhoffer (Medieval Combat-- Mark Rector). The dagger plates possibly indicate the thumb toward the pommel in the "ice pick grip" only twice in Plate 180. By immediate contrast, there are many images of the same "downward" grip with the thumb clearly wrapped over the fingers in Plates 170, 171,173, 175 just to name a few. In regards to a grip (hammer grip) where the blade would face up when held naturally at arm's length, Talhoffer shows the thumb toward the upper "crossguard" disk in Plate 172, 175, 180, and 181.

This sampling would lead me to respectfully disagree with Mr. Bertucci, and I would gladly welcome any evidenced refutation. Until then, I would suppose the thrust you mentioned would be held in the hammer grip.

I am also unsure as to the advantage of using or negelcting the thumb in either grip by I haven't studied dagger yet.

Former member Jason Vail has researched dagger extensively and his work, including his book, may be of some value to you. Best of luck.

Doug Marnick
NYC
_________________
Doug Marnick
NYC

"The sword was a weapon of grace, nobility, and honor... which was little comfort as you slowly bled to death in a dung-filled moat."

[Doug Marnick]

I am now going to refute myself.
The rest of that quote reads "When he has grasped his dagger so that the disc is at his thumb and thrusts you from above" which obviously means the ice pick grip and the opponent is striking downwward. So, the disc at his thumb (as opposed to "little finger" as we sometimes see in manuals) does refer to the pommel as Sal stated. This does not necessarily mean the thumb is placed atop the pommel, just the direction the dagger is facing. Based on Talhoffer, I would still assume the thumb is wrapped around the fingers for this grip.
_________________
Doug Marnick
NYC

"The sword was a weapon of grace, nobility, and honor... which was little comfort as you slowly bled to death in a dung-filled moat."