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Nathan McCartney
Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Eagan, MN
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 Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:22 pm Post subject: Trouble understanding manuals |
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I've been looking at some of the public manuals on the ARMA site and I'm a bit confused on how to translate the pictures into the actual movements. Do you stand holding the weapon in the same manner the picture shows then try and transition to the next panel, or is there something else you're supposed to do? I can't read any other language but english so for the manuals that aren't translated I'm pretty much trying to go just off the pictures.
Any advice you guys can offer would be great. =) |
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Corey Roberts
Joined: 07 May 2005
Posts: 189
Location: Missoula, MT. USA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Hi, Nathan,
First of all it's helpful to remember that none of the images are static postures. Rather think of them as a moment captured in time in a given set of movements. It is difficult to understand what is going on especially if you cannot read the text. However, try to understand the overall intent behind the movement and its desired effect rather than trying to to emulate a given pose exactly. After working through a given set of movements slowly, in order to piece together its individual components, rapidly pick up the pace and perform the action with real speed, power, and martial intent, mimicking as closely as possible the fast energetic actions of real combat. If the technique doesn't work at speed, your doing something wrong, and you must go back and re-interpret.
Hope that helps.
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--Scholar-Adept
Montana |
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Nathan McCartney
Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Eagan, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Actually that was very helpful. I'm so used to instructional pictures being done in a stand-still way that its wierd to work with ones that are a clip of motion. Thanks. =) |
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Jason Taylor
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Orange County, Southern California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi Nathan,
What manuals are you trying to work from? The number of translations online these days has been multiplying, and I may have a few links to manual translations that might help you out. I've also done a few of my own, mostly Paulus Hector Mair, which I could forward to you, depending on what you're lookng for.
Jason
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I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.--The Day the Earth Stood Still |
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Nathan McCartney
Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Eagan, MN
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| Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Jason Taylor wrote: | Hi Nathan,
What manuals are you trying to work from? The number of translations online these days has been multiplying, and I may have a few links to manual translations that might help you out. I've also done a few of my own, mostly Paulus Hector Mair, which I could forward to you, depending on what you're lookng for.
Jason |
For the most part I've been trying to use anything that shows longsword use if it has illustrations since I don't feel I have enough experience or knowledge to practice from only written manuals. So anything you have that teaches longsword would be awesome. Who wrote it doesn't really matter to me right now, being so new still. but thank you for any links you can give me. =D |
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Jason Taylor
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Orange County, Southern California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| Nathan McCartney wrote: |
For the most part I've been trying to use anything that shows longsword use if it has illustrations since I don't feel I have enough experience or knowledge to practice from only written manuals. So anything you have that teaches longsword would be awesome. Who wrote it doesn't really matter to me right now, being so new still. but thank you for any links you can give me. =D |
This is the best link I have for sites with pictures and translations.
www.wiktenauer.com
It's a community site, and everyone on it has donated their time (I did the flail translation and am working on the peasant staff). The entire translated PHM longsword is on there, as well as some good versions of Ringeck, Goliath, etc. I think most of them are translated, and it has the main texts for that that version usually in side by side--so, for example, the Rostock Ringeck, the Dresden one, etc etc., with an English translation.
If you're just looking for some particular plate from, say, Mair, it's probably already on there. If it's not, let me know and I don't mind doing a quick translation for you.
Jason
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I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.--The Day the Earth Stood Still |
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Randall Pleasant
Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 856
Location: Flower Mound, Texas, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| Jason Taylor wrote: | This is the best link I have for sites with pictures and translations.
www.wiktenauer.com |
Nathan
Having just picture and translations really is not enough in itself. All of the bad and silly interpretations we see in the world give testimony to this. This is why it is importation to train with John Clements. Clements new materials outline in the ARMA article Our New Rosetta Stone: Advancing Reconstruction of Forgotten European Fighting Arts (http://www.thearma.org/essays/revealing-new-perspectives.html) gave us not only just new interpretations but also a new way of reading the historical documents, which is why it is referred to as the ARMA Rosetta Stone. I highly suggest seeking a training with Clements if you have not already done so.
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Ran Pleasant
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Nathan McCartney
Joined: 26 Dec 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Eagan, MN
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| Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Randall Pleasant wrote: | | Jason Taylor wrote: | This is the best link I have for sites with pictures and translations.
www.wiktenauer.com |
Nathan
Having just picture and translations really is not enough in itself. All of the bad and silly interpretations we see in the world give testimony to this. This is why it is importation to train with John Clements. Clements new materials outline in the ARMA article Our New Rosetta Stone: Advancing Reconstruction of Forgotten European Fighting Arts (http://www.thearma.org/essays/revealing-new-perspectives.html) gave us not only just new interpretations but also a new way of reading the historical documents, which is why it is referred to as the ARMA Rosetta Stone. I highly suggest seeking a training with Clements if you have not already done so. |
Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to actually train face to face in swordsmanship under someone with so much experience like Mr. Clements, if thats what you're meaning, but realistically I don't know when, or even if, I'd be able to afford it. As soon as I catch up on some other financial priorities I'm definately going to apply to be part of ARMA though and learn as much as I can. |
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Chris Holloman
Joined: 26 Nov 2011
Posts: 37
Location: Ky, 42202
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| Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:13 am Post subject: Keep reading.. |
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This is a rather daunting field to jump into. It is great to have a good teacher but ultimately you must equip yourself to sit with the source materials and decide if someones interpretation is accurate or not. The best teacher in the world can be wrong or there may just be two ways of viewing some things. Ultimately any good teacher has the desire to work themselves out of a job in regards to their students.
Watch what videos you can from ARMA and compare them to other groups and then compare those to other groups...but keep comparing them to the source material. The masters consistently talk about how simple this art is.
Sigmund Ringeck's Knightly Art of the Longsword is a book that has great illustrations and a wonderful forward by John Clements. I have found it a helpful tool to bounce ideas off of.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Sigmund+Ringeck%27s+Knightly+Art+of+the+Longsword&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=TMC&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=imvns&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=839&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=14061930854269894159&sa=X&ei=sAwHT7HwNc_Ltge4rJDSBg&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAQ
Once you have an overall feel for the art, I think it is a good idea to work through one source manual at a time. You will see many similarities among most of the sources, but a person can also "grasshopper" around from source to source to build a conclusion that may violate what the given author may have been saying. (this happens with scripture a lot...)
Also be aware that there are hurt feelings and bad blood between some individuals within the overall Historic European Martial Arts community and some opinions and statements are colored by this. Try to see through and past this as you pursue our art.
One other thought. There really is nothing like have a live training partner. If you can find a study group to visit or some other person with a similar interest in HEMA it will be invaluable. Just keep taking your experiences and running them through the historical sources...
Bro Chris
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"Just as, "no part of the sword was invented in vain", every word of every phrase of every verse of every chapter of the 66 books that make up God's love letter to us. (our "sword" of the spirit) is essential." Me |
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Jason Taylor
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 185
Location: Orange County, Southern California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Keep reading.. |
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| Chris Holloman wrote: |
Also be aware that there are hurt feelings and bad blood between some individuals within the overall Historic European Martial Arts community and some opinions and statements are colored by this. Try to see through and past this as you pursue our art.
One other thought. There really is nothing like have a live training partner. If you can find a study group to visit or some other person with a similar interest in HEMA it will be invaluable. Just keep taking your experiences and running them through the historical sources...
Bro Chris |
Very agreed. Live training partners are invaluable. As far as the bad blood, you're very right also, unfortunately. I stay as far away from that stuff as I can, but as a moderator on another major HEMA board I have to deal with it all the time. The community as a whole would be much better off if they set aside all the politics and the junior-highish bickering (again, I see that a lot) and just used each other as training resources, even if they disagree on methods, interpretations, or style.
Nathan: It says you're in Eagan, Minnesota. There are two groups in Minnesota that I know of. One is the Minnesota Broadsword Academy, which isn't started fully yet but will apparently open its doors sometime in 2012. On the map they seem to be close to Eagan, as they're in Minneapolis, but I have no idea how long that drive would actually be. The director's contact email is gilbride100@hotmail.com, if you want to contact him. He may know of other smaller groups in the area, since he's probably more in touch with the local HEMA community. There's also an ARMA Twin Cities, which looks farther away, but might also be an option. If you want to check either of them out for yourself, there's a HEMA club finder on my group's site at http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=686. We aren't affiliated with any of the groups on there necessarily; some are affiliates of the Alliance and others (ARMA groups, the CSG, etc.) aren't. So the finder is just there to help guys like you find someone to train with, but doesn't endorse or imply any association with any of them.
Hope you can find a group or at least coerce a buddy--and do find yourself some manual translations (I still heavily recommend the Wiktenauer) and start working from them. It's very helpful to have a teacher during this process, but it isn't impossible. That's why there are so many HEMA forums out there to go to and ask your questions.
Good luck. PM me if I can help you get started in any way.
Jason
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