Research and Discussion Forums

[Ryan Ricks]

so we have seen that the thumb grip helps to execute the meisterhau, but what about parrying with hengen?

if you're standing in right pflug and parry with hengen to the left, the thumb can naturally be placed on the blade to give it support as it encounters the oncoming blade.

does this make sense? does any one do it? is it perhaps a bad idea?

ryan
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[Roger Soucy]

It's how I usually do it. With both right and left hengen.

I say usually because it depents on what I'm doing in hengen. If I'm parrying or moving into a traverse I'll use the thumb grip. If I'm moving through hengen to get into position for a zornhau. I won't.
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[JeffGentry]

Hey Ryan

The way i use the thumb grip is a little diffrent i think than most, i just use the thumb to help stop the turn, if you go to hangin with your thumb under your blade or quillion if it is a hard shot i can see the danger of maybe hyper extension of the thumb or possible dislocation which would be vvery bad, i use what i would term left hand control i hold the pommel and use my left hand to turn the sword then i just stop it with my thumb and grip not so much a thumb grip.

it is not something i was conscious i was even doing until recently, i just turn the sword and it happen's, try to do the zwerch and just turn the sword with the left hand for the short edge cut don't over think it just slightly lossen the right hand turn the sword with the left hand and regrip it with the right. I kind of think alot of us have become so scholarly that we over think/ analyze the text and art work we need to remember that this happen's very quick and some of the thing's in the art work look static and are realy just there and gone in the blink of an eye. In whitwater kayak we use a right hand control paddel that is offset and we must continualy orient the paddle blade's by a slight turn of the right hand and a "loose" grip with the left hand.

when ever you do a short edge strike you have to turn the sword with the left hand and use the thumb and grip and it is just a very quick occurance.




Hope this help's remember this is just MHO.
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[GaryGrzybek]

Not only does the thumb placement on the ricasso help brace the sword during Hengen but it also acts as a pivot point when counter cutting with the true or false edge. I keep the hilt high which is naturally safer plus it also helps guide the blade into their head, neck or shoulders. If he's see's it coming and diplaces you can whip around to the other side. Just be careful not to oppose the blow as a static block because it can do some damage to your thumb.


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Gary

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ARMA Northern N.J.
Albion Armorers Collectors Guild

[Jeff Hansen]

IMHO the thumb grip is to help with edge control, not to support the blade. For strength it's better to have your thumb wrapped around the hilt in a full grip. Also, as regards the thumb grip, I used to use it all the time but have become wary of it . When I finally got a decent blunt to work with, myself and another member of the Provo group were working with them and I executed a kron. Now it turns out that when I wasn't actually using the thumb grip I'd fallen into the habit of leaving my hand tight against the cross with my thumb parallel to the cross. With the thickness of the cross on a waster this had never been a problem, however, with steel my thumb was resting on the outside of the cross with the tip extending past the side of the blade about 1/2 an inch. When I executed kron... ouch! Right in the side of the thumbnail. Fortunately, this being our first time playing with steel we were going pretty slow and easy or I could have lost the tip of my thumb. I did this twice more before the end of the training session (apparently I'm a slow learner <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" /> ) Since then I have avoided the thumb grip. If you do decide to continue using it, make sure to get in the habit of pulling it back in when you complete whatever technique you're using it for. Hopefully, my (rather painful) experience will help.
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"A coward believes he will ever live
if he keep him safe from strife:
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[Casper Bradak]

The thumb grip, whatever you use it for, is a transitory hand position. You need to prectice quickly going through different grips on the fly, mid technique. This is no different from unarmed combat, where quickly changing hand positions on the fly improves your ability to strike different targets in different manners, but you shouldn't hold your hand statically in anything but a neutral position.
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[GaryGrzybek]

Agreed, I certainly don't use it all the time but it really helps if the technique calls for it.
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Gary

G.F.S.
ARMA Northern N.J.
Albion Armorers Collectors Guild

[Patrick Hardin]

I agree with Jeff on this, the thumb grip doesn't seem to add support to a hanging parry. I was sparring with Shane Smtih at the Knoxville Meyer seminar, and tried parrying a vertical blow with a thumb-gripped hengen. It almost jammed my thumb. I think the thumb grip serves better for edge alignment than for support of the blade.

Patrick Hardin
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[Casper Bradak]

The thumb grip in hengen more readily aligns the flat for a deflection. Hengen is naturally a deflecting ward, if your thumb gets jammed, angle your blade more steeply against the blow. The more towards 90 degrees you make your hengen, the less likely it is to deflect and the more likely to bind, until it's almost horizontal. If you intend to bind with hengen, the thumb grip will get you jammed unless you recieve the blow very close to the cross. If you bind in that manner and take the blow on the middle or weak, it will lever against your thumb. But the thumb grip is the least advantageous in a bind unless you're about to slip out of it for an edge blow, in which case it's still transitory either way.
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[GaryGrzybek]

This is what I was trying to say above. You don't want to receive a blow on the strong of the blade through hengen with the thumb on the ricasso because it simply hurts <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> I still feel my mistake on ocassion <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />

So yes, by keeping the hilt high and dropping the point you will not receive the blow full force. By allowing the blow to slip past also free's the sword for the counter.

Sorry if I'm being too obvious.
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Gary

G.F.S.
ARMA Northern N.J.
Albion Armorers Collectors Guild

[JeffGentry]

Hey all
I am still trying to figure out why you need to even go to a thumb grip in hengen when i go from pflug to hengen it is unneccessary and i just try to relax and absorb the hit on the flat letting my left hand relax slightly and my right is the pivot then i use the energy i steal from my opponent to drive my sword into a left to right diagonal cut and take his head off, i like economy of motion and it seem's moving the thumb is a waste of motion, i have never done it in hengen and edge alignment is natural if hengen is done properly. If he is strong go a little weak if he is weak be a little strong feel your blade.

I am not as experienced as some here and may find i am wrong in time, it would not be the first time and doubt it would be the last.

remember this just MO so i hope no one get's upset.
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[Allen Johnson]

i find it a little easier to get my edge in alignment with the cut when i thumb the flat. There is a slight tendancy (for me anyway) to turn my wrists slightly when im cutting right after the parry. Using my thumb helps prevent that.
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[JeffGentry]

Allen
This has me wondering if i am doing something wrong or i am just strange i think i am just strange, am going to ask anyway though.

My question then is do you change your grip then when you go from pflug to hengen?

Me personaly i just raise my sword and turn it to get to hengen and my grip doesn't change i just turn my hand's to present the flat so i don't change the angle when i come around to cut and when it is deflected i just ride the blade and control it to the cut with the energy i receive starting the movement of the cut i think that is the beauty of hengen becasue the opponent give's himself the cut lol. (i'm sick)
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[Casper Bradak]

Changing you grip back and forth shouldn't effect your economy of motion. It doesn't slow or speed up your technique, it's just a slight hand shift.
That said, it isn't necessary, just an option. It does give better wrist alignment however.
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[JeffGentry]

Casper
I just don't see the point of adding the extra movement, that is not realy necessary.

we all do it a little diffrent though not a big deal.
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