Research and Discussion Forums

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hello my fellow swordsmen,

The following text you may all know, it's from Sir Robert Cotton's collection, from the book Titus something.
Now, here's the text. A Lot we already understand thanks to other interpretations (like Rounde, Hawke, Rake), but there still are many words we still don't know the meaning of. Now, here's the text:

[/i] Fol. 105r/v:
Strokez off ij hand swerde

Firste a Rownde for the waste Sengyll wt a fune
Also a quarter with a fune. A Rake sengyll wt a fune.
A dowbull’ Rownde a dowbyll’ Rake with a nawke
a quarter and a Rake and a wype with a spring’ vyding’
with the lyfte hand In a quarter with a fune skypping
with a wype. Than’ a quarter and breke a fune atte _e ryght’
shulder with a robecke.
Than _e chase Fyrst a dowbyll’ Rownde wt a bakke fune And a fore fine Rennyng’ wt a Robecke _an _an Rowndez Voyding’ with a Reste a _an a bakke fune to thetone A fore fune to the totherwith a bakke fune to _e fune with a Nawke suying’ and ever _e fote _e hande _e hye and _e herte
[ to accorde. [/i]

Firstly, ij hand swerde means TWO hand sword, right?
What's a Fune? And a Bakke Fune? And a Fore Fune?
'Dowbul? Sengyll? Robecke? Dowbill?

So please if you know any word of the above, please help us out, will you ? <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Or better question, does anybody make sense of the above text at all? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" />

Szabolcs
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[John_Clements]

Hi

Rownde = round (perhaps a cut that strike around from one side to another)
Sengyll = single (perhaps a lone separate or new strike)
Fune- = foyne (a thrust)
Dowbull/dowbyll = double (a combination strike or a repeating cut)
Quarter = to one quarter (a particular target area high or low, left or right)
Nawke = a Hawke, perhaps a downward cut
A bakke fune = perhaps a high downward thrust with the back edge facing down (opposite of a “fore fune”, perhaps a low thrust back edge up?)
Robecke = roe buck, a deer

I like the familiar end part about “ever a foot, a hand, an eye, and a heart”

Just a guess.

JC

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[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

And we thought we were speaking english.

I have figured out some of this and a little of the additional manuscript.

These guy's used alot of phonetic spelling and tend to spell the same word 2-3 diffrent way's i found if you actualy read it out loud it is a little easier because they are spelling things the way they sound, it is some crazy english.

Jeff
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[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hey thanxxx <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

This is great.
I mean, one always talks about germans (preußen to be correct?) and Italians, yet what about the french and the English and the spanish and alike?

This one I've figured out, that in Hungary, it was a mixed Art from germany and Italy, for Mathias Corvinus invited fencers from firenze and other parts of Italy to his court, yet the black army used mastercuts as well (this is to see for example in Siber's work, his 6 goings he learned in many countries, but in hungary as well.
So I wonder. Besides the 3 texts I know in Old english (one of them being the Harleian, the second Cotton Titus, and the third I don't know the name of), is there nothing available?
For the English way seems to be different. Like, we always connect quite anything to Lichtenauer, even Fiore is sometimes thought to be a student of him (even tough his Art is completelly different), but surely, the must have been many others, with different scools and stuff. Where can the english way be delivered from? Or, IS there an "English Way", one could explore and learne and teach and talk about? For it's one thing to call a Fendente Hawke or a Tondo Rounde, but are there any teachings of the system of fighting itself? What were the differences? Is it correct to say, that the English way featured bigger swords, like a Claymore, and that the system represented this? Is there any master to whom we could connect the system to, like we connect almost everything but the "schweizer fechtzettel" to Lichtenauer?
i'm asking all this questions, because I find english texts from time to time, but no group actually semms to teach that system, not even ARMA.

But again, I thank you for your help (any more comments of my above spagetti I'd appreciate <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

Szabolcs
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[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

I know the two you mention, other than that i have not seen much of an english "system", we have MS 3542 on the public page, it is an interesting read.

It seem's like most english text are very short, more like study note's or something.

I am not realy a researcher so there could be ton's of thing's i know nothing about, and that is more than likely, because i know nothing.


Jeff
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[Brian Hunt]

Other than the later texts such as Silver and Hope, we don't seem to have many English texts. That is why they are difficult to work with because there isn't a lot there.

Good luck

Brian Hunt
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[Mike Chidester]

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Well, all humans look alike and the same can be said about longswords, so it's no wonder the fencing systems in different countries are alike.
Yet I'd say it's one thing to fill the gaps of Fiore's book with what we learned from german swordsmanship, but it's another to read Hanko and to read Fiore after. The two have 20 years in between, not much in fact, but have in my reading a lot of things in common, and a lot that are not. Fiore parts his longsword section in Gioco Largo and Gioco Stretto, wide and close play, and there are a lot of double time in his wide play, or Riposte, and little single time (or half time), what would be very important in german scools (indes). I can be wrong of course, so comments are welcome, but that is one difference in my eyes. The second being, german masters teach not so much close fights, do they? They of course are writing about groundfights and wrestling with the sword (not to mention without), but Fiore's Gioco Streto has more desfribed technics than any other. As for me, it seems like Fiore has a system that can be better learned and be used by lesser skilled fencers, while th german system with all the master cuts is more for the skilled and brave fencers. Using mastercuts in a real fight would take in my eyes lots of courage, it would need very good timing and measurement.
There are of course many-many things that are essentially the same (Posta di Donna and Zornhut, for example) but this is no big wonder, since Lichtenauer and Fiore both say they travelled near and far and collected what they could. They could have, essentially, even meet one another or the same masters around in europe.

But even if I'm wrong with my above thinking, there are differences and the concept of fighting is different in, at least, some aspects. It's everyman's decision to look at the differences OR the things alike. For me, I'd like to think there were many masters and that there are at least two different systems one can explore and learn , instead of sayaing, that everything connects to Lichtenauer from fencing to cooking. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
In an age where globalistaion was not known, could have a single man, even if the best and fastest and wisest master of all time, be the source of every technic with, at least, 5 different weapons? Is that not a little exaggerated?

Me of course being a big fan of the Grandmaster, no offens meant.

Szabolcs
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[Risto Rautiainen]

OT: As a side note, Giocco Stretto and Giocco Largo are not used to describe distance to the opponent, rather the amount of room you have to move around in relation to your opponent. If you already knew this, then nevermind.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Szabolcs

[Mike_McGurk]

"And we thought we were speaking english...... These guy's used alot of phonetic spelling and tend to spell the same word 2-3 diffrent way's i found if you actualy read it out loud it is a little easier because they are spelling things the way they sound, it is some crazy english."

When Middle English was spoken, the written tongue had not yet been standardised and consistency wasn't considered incredibly important.
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[Mike_McGurk]

The Middle English Dictionary (I add a link to the site in the post Translating/Undestanding Texts.) defines a rownde as 'A swinging thrust or stroke in fencing.'.
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