Research and Discussion Forums

CalebChow · Joined: 14 Oct 2007 Posts: 175 Location: Pennsylvania, USA

I've been told that the WW interpretation doesn't really have a practical use in serious combat or something along those lines.

What exactly is the difference in ARMA's interpretation of the Krumphau? I couldn't quite tell in the illustrations in the articles+essays section.

Thanks!

John_Clements · Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 1177 Location: Atlanta area

LafayetteCCurtis · Joined: 04 Nov 2006 Posts: 287

I'm not an ARMA member, but I've never thought the Krumphau looks much like a windshield-wiper movement at all--to me, windshield-wiper implies a strictly rotational movement going almost entirely in the vertical plane with a nearly static pivot, whereas the Krumphau as I understand includes a component of "reaching out" as well as plenty of translational movement, especially when it's used against high targets (such as when we try to break a defense in Ochs).

Mars Healey · Joined: 19 Dec 2005 Posts: 79 Location: CT, USA

The only time I've seen the wind-shield wiper explanation used is to introduce a student to the Krump. Once they get the basic idea that it's a sideways barrier move, then the instruction moves on to the actual details of the move.
_________________
"Practice knighthood, and learn the Art that dignifies you."
-Johannes Liechtenauer
Western Swordsmanship Technique & Research

Ciaran Daly · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 28 Location: Minneapolis, MN

Alan Abu Bakr · Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 76 Location: Sweden

John_Clements · Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 1177 Location: Atlanta area

John_Clements · Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 1177 Location: Atlanta area

Ciaran Daly · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 28 Location: Minneapolis, MN

Jeffrey Hull · Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 678 Location: USA

I would be nice if some fencers would stop trying to get us to reveal our discoveries in an unseemly or untimely manner. Some fencers at other forums have, for example, tried to trick a few of us into divulging things that they ought to figure out on their own, and then gain resentment thereby.

To keep some secrets is the perogative of a fencing teacher or school, it is historically verifiable (e.g. Talhoffer and other masters), and is not the expletive whereby you described it. (Such vulgarity is considered uncool at this forum.) Would you say that whatever secrets are kept by MACP means that the combatives of the US Army ought to be suspect?

Anyway, it would be nice if other fencers would simply understand. For some unknown reason, we get disparaged for keeping confidence, whereas when various other organizations do similarly, then that is "okay", because they are in the favour of the so-called WMA Community, for we lack "courtesy" or whatever. That is just not fair.
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JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

Ciaran Daly · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 28 Location: Minneapolis, MN

I'm not arguing that it's not your or anybody else's prerogative or not to share their insights. It's obviously your choice. What I am arguing is that we are better served by openness than secrecy.

The "historical masters did it" argument is easily disposed of. And so what if some people "steal" your insights? It's just proof you were right. Being overly concerned about people that don't have the integrity to give credit where it's due, or who gossip and snipe, is undignified. Let those people reap what they sow and don't give them a moment's thought.

Sorry for the vulgarity, by the way. I'll keep it clean here from now on.

Stacy Clifford · Joined: 14 May 2004 Posts: 749 Location: Houston, TX

John did say that we may choose to keep some things secret "for the time", which means that while some things may always remain private, some may also eventually be made public. We are not the kind of organization that immediately trumpets our latest discoveries to the world the day after we make them. If we have some new interpretation of a technique, then we want time to refine and test that interpretation and share it with our own members before we share it with the rest of the world. That's a reasonable privilege of becoming a member I believe, and does not diminish the nature of our scholarship in any way.

Keep in mind also that there are a growing number of people out there writing books about the manuals and WMA subjects, and if some of them pirated our research and published it, they would not just be acting dishonorably, they would be profiting off of it. John is a published author with many more books in the works, and several of our other senior scholars here have also published their research or have projects ongoing. It is their right to expect that their work developed within our organization using our methods and resources and testing and feedback from our members be protected until such time as they can rightfully benefit from it. It is not fair to ask them to share these things prematurely. John is absolutely right, we are very generous with the amount of information we provide to the public, but as long as we are producing original research, we have the right to decide when is the proper time to make it public and to preserve some of it as incentive to join our ranks.
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Stacy Clifford
Free-Scholar
ARMA Houston, TX

Ciaran Daly · Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 28 Location: Minneapolis, MN

Eloquently put Stacy. Thank you.

Mars Healey · Joined: 19 Dec 2005 Posts: 79 Location: CT, USA

John, I apologize if I explained it poorly.

I give you The Krumphau as I practice it.
_________________
"Practice knighthood, and learn the Art that dignifies you."
-Johannes Liechtenauer
Western Swordsmanship Technique & Research

Alan Abu Bakr · Joined: 07 Jul 2007 Posts: 76 Location: Sweden

I'd like to add, that I indeed like the info I've found on the ARMA page, and this forum. They are good sources for info on HEMA, for which I am thankful.