Vom Dach or Vom Tag?

[Corey Roberts]

In modern German Dach is roof, and Tag is day, therefore Vom Dach=from the roof, and Vom Tag would mean (in modern German anyway) from the day, my question is is this Tag/Dach thing a linguistic/dialectal difference between modern german and that used during the period of the source manuals and Tag in the source manuals actually does mean Dach or is this just a common error found in much of ARMA literature?

[G.MatthewWebb]

In modern German Dach is roof, and Tag is day, therefore Vom Dach=from the roof, and Vom Tag would mean (in modern German anyway) from the day, my question is is this Tag/Dach thing a linguistic/dialectal difference between modern german and that used during the period of the source manuals and Tag in the source manuals actually does mean Dach or is this just a common error found in much of ARMA literature?

I've always assumed that Von Tag = Von Dach and represents an old spelling though I'm not versed in Early Modern German. Calling a guard "from the day" does not seem like a likely description.

Matthew Webb

[Brian Hunt]

Tag also means above, so vom tag=from above.

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jaron Bernstein]

That raises another interesting question. Why was is it called Posta Di Donna?

[Mike Chidester]

That raises another interesting question. Why was is it called Posta Di Donna?

I've heard various theories, but no convincing ones.

[Brad Patrick]

When I first read text translations and saw this I was very confused also. But I think it's just a dialect thing, or possibly that the German language wasn't standardized across the nation(s), maybe similar to why Meyer calls Germans "Teutschen" instead of "Deutschen". In modern German the final 'g' in Tag is pronounced as a 'k' and the 'ch' of Dach is pronounced [kh] as in 'Loch Ness', i.e. back in the throat, but the sounds are really similar. Also in modern German the D is pronounced as a T at the end of a word, but not at the beginning so I would think Dach is pronounced "Dah[kh]" but phonetically is close to "Tak" (Tag).

I know that in their texts, Meyer says "Tag", as do Goliath and Danzig. Meyer explained the Roof name as:
"...Bilde zur Lincken, in der Figur welche mit dem Buchstaben C. gezeich-netlehre, was dann also von oben herein gearbet wirdt, heißt alles auß dem Tag oder Oberhut gefochten, darumb solch Leger der Tag genennet."

I transliterated as:
"...Picture on the left, in the character side with the letter C. illustrates-teaches, what then so from above inward becomes working, called all strikes from the Roof or High Guard are fenced, why this stance is called the Roof."

Or as Mike Rasmusson translated (probably much better than I did):
"the figure on the left of the image above, illustration C, which indicates how one can operate from above, that all strikes can be fenced from the Roof or High Guard, which is why this Guard is named the Roof."

[Jake_Norwood]

This issue is complicated by Dr. Forgeng's Meyer translation, for which we are all very grateful. He translates Tag as Day.

However, linguistically, Brad's observations are dead on. T and D are interchangeable, as are G-K-CH and all vowels one with another when going back into old dialects. So while it *could* be Day, I think that "roof" is more likely.

That isn't to say that the Germans themselves hadn't become confused on their own homonym over time, so that even they thought it referred to the "day" and not to the roof eventually, even though it started out as the one.

From Above and From the Roof make excellent sense as well...not so, "from the day"

Jake

[Martin Wallgren]

In modern German Dach is roof, and Tag is day, therefore Vom Dach=from the roof, and Vom Tag would mean (in modern German anyway) from the day, my question is is this Tag/Dach thing a linguistic/dialectal difference between modern german and that used during the period of the source manuals and Tag in the source manuals actually does mean Dach or is this just a common error found in much of ARMA literature?

In Swedish witch is pretty close to Old German (more so than to Modern german) "Tak" (or with very old spelling "tag") means roof or sieling. Day translate to "Dag" in Swedish. "Tak" and "Dag" is pronounced with the a sounding as in the english word art. As t and d is related in the sounding just as k and g in the northern germanic languages the mutation from one sound to the other is natural as a language is changing over time. That supports the roof translation too in my oppinion.

[Brian Hunt]

Just to further add to this,

Kleines Mittelhochdeutsches Worterbuch states that Dach and Tach are the same word. However, tac and dac are tag, not Dach and Tach.

I also agree upon the statements about which letters and sounds are interchangeble.

laters,

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Mike Chidester]

You really only need to take a look at english manuscripts from the period to understand what's going on. For example, read a few pages of George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense, and see if you still think that different spellings of Vom Tag is a bad thing. A lot of our texts were written before their languages were standardized, so there was very likely multiple common spellings of most words.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yeah, that is one of the few things about which I disagree with Forgeng regarding his otherwise generally agreeable translating.

I would point out that the Grimm Brothers seem to agree with those who assert "roof" or "from above/high", and really not "day". They define as such under their heading for "Dach" meaning primarily "roof", regarding related variant "von dach" based upon usage in a 17th Cent copy of Talhoffer, no less, which is as follows:

8: adverbialisch heiszt von dach von oben, von tach ab superne Vocab. v. 1618. in TALHOFFERS fechtbuch ist der schlag von dach ein schwerthieb, wobei man frei über dem kopf ausholt, ital. tirar di fico. es soll keiner sein hand nider heben, damit das schwein mit seinem rüssel darein laufe, sondern die hand in aller höh haben und ihm den fang also von dach geben. FOUILLOUX Jagdbuch. vor lieb, o Jesu, bin ich schwach, mein herz das flammt und brinnt von dach Kathol. gesangb. (München 1660). von dach aufspringen frei in die höhe springen vor freude oder zorn SCHMELLER 1, 351.

The things to notice are that they define phrase "von dach" as adverbal, and as equating with "from above" (von oben), and thus literally "from roof".

So we have the force of those learned scholars on our side to support "from above" or "from roof", but not really "from day".

BTW: The unexpected equating of "von dach" with an Italian fencing phrase "tirar di fico", literally "casting the figs" / "drawing from the fig-tree" or contextually "fencing from above", is interesting.

[G.MatthewWebb]

Jeffrey,

Thanks for the excerpt from the famous Brothers Grimm which is very strong support for the equation of Tag and roof not Tag and day. For those who do not know, the Grimm brothers were very famous and influential historical linguists of German in the 19th century.

Jake and Jeffrey,

I was not aware that Forgeng had translated Tag as "day" since I have not purchased the book yet.


To all,

I agree that "d" and "t" are very similar sounds and "g," "k," and "ch" are similar sounds and in German quite frequently vary across dialects and across the history of a single dialect, meaning that they can shift from one to the other quite easily.

Matthew

[Corey Roberts]

Thanks, I figured it was just a wierd old spelling and language variance, but it still confused me at first.

[JeffGentry]

Corey

Bet you did expect to have to learn about languiage in order to fence god know's i didn't.

This whole thread has been very educational to me.

Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

The things to notice are that they define phrase "von dach" as adverbal, and as equating with "from above" (von oben), and thus literally "from roof".

Are you serious!?!?!?! That's awesome!!! I KNEW IT!!!!

Anyone know where I can get a copy of Jake Grim and his brother's dictionary?

::doing a little dance::

That's awesome...

Jake