Research and Discussion Forums

[Eli Combs]

I have always heard the German name for Tail Guard called Niebenhut (pronounced neebenhoot) which I translated as Lower Guard. My thinking was that nieben was an older form of nieder or lower. During a discussion with Stew Feil, he mentioned that he can only remember it being spelled Nebenhut in manuals. Neben (pronounced nehben) means close, so Nebenhut would be correctly translated as Close Guard. I started thinking about why it would be called the Close Guard instead of the Lower Guard. I came up with three reasons.

1. This one is pretty weak. When in Nebenhut you hold the sword close to your body.
2. This is better. Due to the position of the sword (behind and to the side) you draw your opponent in closer.
3. This is the main argument. The strongest attacks from Nebenhut are made from the half-arm i.e. are close range attacks. It is generally accepted that a full-arm Unterhau from Tail is not a terribly powerful cut. However, that same cut thrown from the half-arm at close range as a pressing/draw cut is very powerful. The same applies to a Mittelhau or a Zornhau (assuming you do not transition through Vom Tag). Those are pretty much the only cuts you can make directly from Tail.

That is what I thought up. Comments, questions, rude remarks?
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Eli Combs
Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Provo

[Hans Heim]

Hi Eli,

here is the text about the "Nebenhuten" from Ringeck:

[49 r] Hie mörck, vß den nebenhůtten - daß ist auß den streychen - zů fechten.
Wiß, das auß den streychen gutt vechten ist. Wie wol sy in der zedel nict benampt sin, so kommen doch die stuck vsß der zedel, die man daruß vichtet. Vnd die streychen soll man trybenn von der lincken sytten, wann von der rechten sind sy nitt also gewiß, alß von der lincken.
Item, wann du ligst in der nebenhůt vff diner lincken sytten vnnd ainer hawet vff dich von oben nider, so streych von vnden vff vast in sin schwert mitt der kurtzen schniden. [49 v] Helt er starck widervnd ist nicht ze hoch mit den henden, so duplier zwischen dem man vnd sinem schwert ein mitt der kurtzen schniden zuo sinem lincken halß.
Item, wann du vff streychst - alß vor - an sinem schwert, jst er dann waich am schwert vnd nider mitt den henden, so haw im zů hand mitt der langen schniden oben zů der blöß. Oder fölt er dir starck mitt dem schwert vff daß din, so far im bald mitt dem knopf über sin schwert vnd bleyb mitt den henden daruff vnd laß den ort hindersich zů diner lincken sytten; vnnd schnapp jm mitt der kurtzen schniden zů dem haupt.
[50 r] Item, wenn du im streychst an sin schwert, fört er hoch vff vnd windt, so schlach jn jn die rechte sytten mitt gesträchten armen. Vnd tritt damitt zů rucke.
Item, wann du jm vff streychst an sin schwert, fört er hoch vff vnf windt, so sterck mitt der langen schniden. Schlecht er dann vmb mit der zwerch, so schlach in in die lincken sytten mit einem abtritt.
Item, wann du tribst die streychen zů dem mann, vnd helt er dann sin schwert zwerchs vor im vnd ist hoch mitt den armen vnd will dir vff din schwert fallen, so streych im vnden an syn schwert [50 v] vnd schlach in vff den arm oder stoß in an die brust.
Item, ist er nider mitt den henden vnd will dir vff fallen, so streych durch vff die anderen sytten vdn stop in zů der brust: daß ist durch gewechslet.
Item, wann du durch streychst, so fall im mitt der langen schniden vff sin schwert vnnd wind vff din lincke sytten, das din daum vnden kompt. Vnd far im mitt der langen schniden an sinen rechten halß mit der strörck, vnd spring mitt dem rechten fůß hinder sinen lincken, vnnd ruck in mit dem schrit daruber.
Item, wann du vß dem streychen durchwechselst vnnd kompst [51r] zů der andern sytten oben vff sin schwert, so magst du die stuck glych alsß wol tryben - alß vor vff gener sytten - mitt zeckrüren vnd mitt allen dingen.


The word "neben" has a lot of meanings in German, it could be: alongside, ancillary, besides, by and so on. The problem with the "Nebenhuten" it that we do not know, what exactly the purpose of master Ringeck was with calling the techniques out of the cuts "die streychen" "aus den Nebenhuten".

Whas his intention to let us know that the sword was in a position that is at the side of our body, or that there are four primary guards (Ochs, Pflug, Alber, vom Tag) and that there are other guards "aside" from the four guards?

Servus

Hans
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Wer do leit der ist tot. Wer sich rueret der lebt noch.

[GaryGrzybek]

Although I can provide no more assistance on the translation I will add that a full arm cut from Nebenhut can be quite powerful. It is obvious that we are dealing with extensive travel time in order to cut from this position but deception can sometimes over rule. If you cut from Nebenhut against an Oberhau, extend and push out from the hilt cutting against his arms, draw back to slice then turn the point and thrust at his face. Also, if you counter by stepping wide and to your right you can cut to the side of his head with extended arms. One of the things we have been working on is the transition from right side Nebenhut to left Pflug. This obviously uses more of the half arm like you said and closes the left side from attack while also threatening with the point.
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Gary

G.F.S.
ARMA Northern N.J.
Albion Armorers Collectors Guild

[JeffGentry]

My thought on tail and this MHO, i don't have alot of experience i have played with tail alittle lately to see where i can go with an attack from tail.

If your in tail and you adversary is in oh say r. ochs his left leg is out and he can't realy see the length of your blade so it can be deceiving (i.e. he doesn't know how long your blade is and his distance judgement is deceived), the only real quick attack you have is to a lower opening (i.e. his left leg) he being in r.ochs will most likely attack your left side/head but if you step right offline and take the leg and follow through to l. ochs you should be protected all the way through and he will drop like a stone a man who can't stand can't fight we see in the art work alot of guy's who have a leg cut off and there opponent standing over them to finish him off.

So i think tail used with thought and practice and experience it can in some case's be an effective gaurd it just take's some thought in training and lot's of experience to figure out when and how to use it to the best effect.

This is just MHO.
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[Eli Combs]

Thanks for your responses. I guess now it's time for a little clarification.

1. Hans makes a very good point. There are many possibilities which, I believe, all make up one whole. I am merely focusing on one of those here.

2. Gary, I should probably re-phrase my statement about a full-arm Unterhau being weak. Better said, it tends to be weaker than a half-arm Unterhau. With most cuts this is not the case. The full-arm version not only gives you greater range, but it is more powerful. With an Unterhau from Tail, the half-arm strike naturally decreases your range, but tends to have more force behind it (especially when "pressing the hands" or draw-cutting) than it's full-arm counterpart.

I hope that clears some things up. Please respond with any more thoughts. Thanks.
_________________
Eli Combs
Sen. Free Scholar
ARMA Provo

[JeffGentry]

The only thing with a full force unterhau from tail is it is very easy for an opponent to smack the sword straight down and knock it out of your hand's because you have it in a weak grip, Jake warned us about that in the 1.0 and then i did it, threw a full force unter from tail and my opponent smacked my sword and the sword went flying, so be careful, a schnit cut up to pflug is probably best.

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[TimSheetz]

Jeff,

I think you especially vulnerable to this if you don't vary the angle from which you are cutting. The best results I have gotten from this have not been from cutting with an unterhau from this guard... But oberhaus and horzontal cuts.... cause everyone 'knows' you will use an unterhau, right?

Peace,

Tim Sheetz
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Tim Sheetz
ARMA SFS

[JeffGentry]

Tim
yea that is probably best, i did that once it won't happen again, i usualy learn pretty quick when i screw up that bad.

That was a true rookie mistake. rofl.
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Grace, Focus, Fluidity

[Ryan Ricks]

i've had some success using void and counter from nebenhut (tail guard), especially with a quick oberhau into alber. with a little practice, it's pretty easy to defend from nebenhut with the krumphau. it's a little harder to do against a thrust though, you've gotta be quick

ryan
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ARMA associate member

[JeffGentry]

[Rob Lovett]

Hi there,

Perhaps Fiore can help: