hanging guard and ochs

[JeanryChandler]

I was looking at the ARMA page on the guards, very well done though I'm sure it's not recent! I was suprised to read that "Also, the Ochs is not a "hanging point" or hanging guard position. "

I thought the Ochs was a hanging guard position? I'm sure this is an idiotic newby question, but what is the difference?

I use this guard freqently and consider it a strong defensive guard and basis for counters, especially if switched into quickly from another guard upon being attacked. It was the first WMA guard I really started using effectively. Now I'm wondering what the heck I've actualyy been doing, and if it's even correct!?

JR

[Casper Bradak]

The main difference is application. Technique and transitory position vs a sword position, to put it vaguely, though your sword position will change somewhat depending on just what you're doing.

[JeffGentry]

hey Jeanry

As far as i know hanging gaurd is just what it say's the point hanging toward the lower opening of your opponent or the ground a little out in front of you, och's the hilt is near your head blade horizontal to the ground, either one can be used for a quick thrust och's high, hanging low, to me that is how i understand the diffrence i do use both depending on my mood and the situation.

Jeff

[JeanryChandler]

Ok, so if your point is strait out, it's ochs, (but I thought the name ocs came from the point going downward a bit...?) if your point is sagging it's hangen...?

Two other questions. I tend to hold hanging guard an inch or two over my head so that the strong of the blade protects my head, but in a lot of portrayls of hangen or ochs it seems like its a bit lower, like around ear level. Which is correct?

Also, in ochs or hangen, is it more correct to hold the blade vertical, diagonal, or horizontal? I generally keep it kind of diagonal so that I can 'unwind' and twitch either up and over or from side to side. Also blade up in a counter will tend to meet your opponents blade edge on, which is a no-no.

Which is right?

Jeanry

[Casper Bradak]

Ok, so if your point is strait out, it's ochs, (but I thought the name ocs came from the point going downward a bit...?) if your point is sagging it's hangen...?

Like I said, it's more a matter of application.
If your point is aimed at your opponent an you are en-guarde, it's ochs (though it's generally preferred to have it aimed at his face or breast). If you are using it as a technique it may be one of the 4 hangers or a hanging point parry, or you may thrust or strike or bind "from" ochs.

Two other questions. I tend to hold hanging guard an inch or two over my head so that the strong of the blade protects my head, but in a lot of portrayls of hangen or ochs it seems like its a bit lower, like around ear level. Which is correct?

Some variation in hilt position is fine, but don't blind yourself or sacrifice protective value. If you're talking about a hengen parry, as long as it covers you properly, it can be higher or lower. Bring it very low and it may be a shrankhut.

Also, in ochs or hangen, is it more correct to hold the blade vertical, diagonal, or horizontal? I generally keep it kind of diagonal so that I can 'unwind' and twitch either up and over or from side to side. Also blade up in a counter will tend to meet your opponents blade edge on, which is a no-no.

Again, variation is fine. Holding it horizontally is generally more of a transitory position (but that depends who you ask). Vertical or at an angle are natural and useful. When you say "blade" I assume you mean edge.
Any way you hold it, you will have to shift your grip to perform certain techniques. If you can't do that, you are only telegraphing with your guard. You must be able to instantly and fluidly shift your grip to present either your edge or flat.
I can't stress enough to read the fencing manuals as opposed to just messing around or asking questions. Master Ringeck addresses most of these ochs/hanger questions.

[JeanryChandler]

I can't stress enough to read the fencing manuals as opposed to just messing around or asking questions. Master Ringeck addresses most of these ochs/hanger questions.

I do read the fehctbuchs, Tallhoffer, Lichtenaur (sp) and Ringeck mostly so far, over and over again like religious tomes. But I still don't really trust my ability to interpret them, for example I was apparently confused a bit about the difference between hanging guad and ox.

So I occasionally try to cross-check my grasp of what they are saying by comparing notes with other students of WMA. I still frankly find most of the Masters very cryptic and difficult to suss out, with the partial exception of Meyer.

I appreciate your patience in answering my simpletons questions Caspar, thanks for the advice. I look forward to having the opportunity to spar with you one day to compare our fencing abilities, and no doubt learn even more.


Jeanry

[Casper Bradak]

I understand. I don't think any of those questions were simpletons questions. Likewise.

[JeanryChandler]

No, to be fair they were kind of simplistic questions, and you kind of hit the nail on the head. I am coming from a rather unusual position of having done stick figthing for many years before I ever even heard of WMA, so I am trying to catch up in terms of scholarship and a generally more disciplined approach. We have been at this seriously since Southern Knights here, and my local friends and I are just starting to get to the point where things are beginning to really click. But we do not have a local master to train under and so to some extent, are blind leading the blind...

So I really do need and appreciate all the help I can get.

Jeanry

[Shawn Cathcart]

As Casper mentions its a difference between a static guard and a transitionary position. Ochs would be considered a "static" guard. Something you would stand in. Hengen is a position that you would move through. You can transition through a hengen position from the Ochs guard for example.

As a matter of habit I genearlly keep my Ochs guard with the edge up, I personally think it leaves you in the best position to utilize either edge using a flexible grip, but I see many people that hold it on an angle. Can't say I've seen many hold it horizontally though.

As for the height of the hilt in hengen it does indeed depend on where the cut is coming from. I really don't see the hengen position described as a defence against an initial strong cut, and from my own sparring I think I see why. Its more often described after you get into the bind or winding. This would likely mean there'd be lots of side-stepping, which I would think would make an ear level hengen good for most situations.

[JeanryChandler]

Interesting. I generally use this guard, (hangen) now as a more transitory position, specificially because I think it is an excellent way to meet any attack to that quarter of my body (upper left side) but I don't want to telegraph my intent by waiting in the guard.

I have always found (even pre-WMA) that hangen, as I understand it was possibly the very best and most reliable way to displace such an attack, then close and counter with a killing blow, sometimes passing through.

I'm really starting to wonder if I'm talking about the right thing though. I'll post some clips tonight to demonstrate what I am talking about.

Jeanry

[Shawn Cathcart]

I know the action you are talking about. And I agree it certainly is a very instinctive reaction to a cut to the upper left target. However it works better on cuts that are on a deeper angle away from vertical. The diagonal cut really isn't all that diagonal. Look at the lines of the cut as shown in Fiore aimed at the head. Its just to the side of the middle crown of the head on each side. Against cuts of this nature hengen is a little more risky, done improperly you'll notice a lot of hard cuts to the fingers and knuckles.

Generally I'd use hengen when in closer, or when stifling or rushing as described in some of the sword throws described in Ringeck. Although many times I find Kron/crown works better for closing. To try and displace a cut using hengen from starting distance often leaves a skilled opponent with time to choose a different target. Basically you end up reacting to his blade. Much better to simply respond with a cut of your own. As they say, cut when he cuts, thrusts when he thrusts. The only times Ringeck really worries about the blade is when it is held in guards that keep the point directed at him, such as long point, phlug and ochs. In those cases he tends to throw a meisterhau at such an angle that the cut should cover him from any thrust (as in Sheilhau against phlug), or feint a cut against the blade in order to then bind it and thrust (counter against long point), or stepping offline away from the point, tossing a cut at the hands (as in krumphau against ochs).

I think its just a progression. We used to use a lot of hengen when we first started sparring, but over time it fell away to being used in more specific cases. From an intial cut as you keep working at things, I think you'll find there are better things you can do aside from displacing with a hengen, that will leave you more clearly with the initiative.

[JeanryChandler]

Just so I know we are on the same page, here is a little clip of what I consider a hangen guard & counter, both with longsword and with single sword.

http://www.iregames.com/jr/hangen-series.wmv (821 k)

Most of these clips are pretty sloppy in terms of form but you can see what I mean by using the counter in action.

I don't use this as much as I used to either, but contrary to what y'all have said, I found that it works best against a committed attack, and is nearly impervious to any attack from above or the left side (zornhau or schliehau ?) and if aggressively pusued can often lead to a decisive counter.

I find it is weaker against an attack made without intent, actually, or a feint...

We have found that the trick to using it now is if one senses someone is going to attack hard to your left upper quadrant, stay in a vulunerable guard to the last instant and then switch to hanging guard, stepping forward or back as the situation demands (usually forward) and counter aggresively.

We don't see this as much any more because people have learned it is a dangerous counter, but I have found that it is a very good response to any forceful attack to that quadrant, and it is also the number one tactic I reccomend against amatuers and especialy in any street encoutner should you ever find yourself defending yourself with a stick or a pipe against attack by any long object.

Amateurs seem to always strike in that "strike of wrath"

Now, based on what y'all have said, this is a hangen, though if we were waiting in a static guard beforehand it was an ochs... right? or do thse clips portray something totally different?


Jeanry

[JeanryChandler]

I'm embarassed to admit that I'm not certain what Kron actually is, I thought it was kind of a form of hangen.. can you elaborate and or link to an image?

Jeanry

[Shawn Cathcart]

Hengen is a good defense against a commited Zornhau to your left upper target. But it is a defense. Its 1-2 timing rather than more indes or "during" timing. Hengen takes the tip offline, depending on which side it also crosses your wrists which can be exploited by using pressure, and it also takes and winds the hilt high and to the side, making it a little more difficult to move to your other side should your opponent switch targets mid-cut.

I'm still of the opinion that more vertical Zornhau's make hengen difficult to use properly as you have to watch your knuckles, and generally have to side-step to catch it properly on the strong of your blade. A Zornhau as a counter is much more effective, but it must be thrown right. Because the opponent is stepping towards you in a committed strike, he is covering the distance for you, so your timing can be quicker to toss in a Zornhau. I usually toss mine slightly to the right of his head and mostly vertical. This angle is a cut on him, but it also protects me from his incoming cut. Also, when you start using steel people seem to more readily recognize when they have lost the initiative. In this case you give a cut, but he more quickly counters with a cut against you, so you stop your cut and push your hilt across to your left to bind his cut out. This is the bind, I believe, that Ringeck makes reference too, the most basic bind.

There are several things that I know worked well against a hengen used on an initial attack.
- Give the cut, let him take the cut on his blade and react with the rather predictable counter cut to the left side of my head. If i'm reacting right I keep my hilt and arms extended in front of me and can merely slide/wind them across to my left to again bind on your blade, leaving me inside and open for a counter of my own.
- give the cut, see it taken upon the hengen, step out to my right with my lead foot, offline, and toss a rising cut up underneath your arms as you come around to the other side for your counter. The rising cut leaves my hilt high, protecting from the cut should it get through, and puts the blade in a very difficult position for you to deal with.

These are just a few examples and I'm sure there are many others that I've never thought of. So I think while hengen is a good reflex to have, and certainly will protect you in a clinch, it still leaves you dealing and waiting for your opponents blade, when you should be using that timing to counter, forcing the bind. Against a fighter trying to fight indes, I think you'll find the 1-2 timing of hengen can leave you behind in timing.

That being said it seems to be something everyone goes through. It does work very well, but as you start learning more of the meisterhau and timing concepts I think you'll find hengen working less effectively as you use it currently. Its a reflex that many people figure out pretty quickly. But you have to be careful not to rely on it too heavily. It leaves you acting defensively, when you could be countering indes.

Kron has lots of different variations it seems depending on the manual you look at. Kron, as I'm referring to it, is the position where your hilt is lifting directly in front of your face, but over your head, blade sloping forward at an angle. It, in the bind, allows you to push the opponents blade up and out if need be catching it on your guard as well. Generally the concept was from Kron you could rush in to closing, or wind the hilt on the blade carrying it to the outside leaving you open for grips and seizures using your hands or the pommel.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jeanry

There is a hengen parry and in Meyer he has a hanging gaurd, i think Shawn is describing the hanging parry, i was describing the hanging gaurd, which did you mean? i couldn't get the video to play something with my WMP.

Kron, as I'm referring to it, is the position where your hilt is lifting directly in front of your face, but over your head, blade sloping forward at an angle. It, in the bind, allows you to push the opponents blade up and out if need be catching it on your guard as well.

you need to be sure to go straight up when you do kron that and angle the tip away from you, if you turn your blade to the side it will meet edge on edge and knick the edge, your edge should slide up his flat and vice verse.

Jeff