The dangers of groundfighting in WMA

[TimSheetz]

Hi Jaron,

There is a problem between using an example that is battlefield and the other is a classroom or at best a "duelling" situation. One situation you get to prep and be dressed in "training gear". The other you get body armor, ammo pouches, canteens, helmet, in heavy boots and load bearing vest/harness... of course the description of the load changes the further back in time you go (but the load doesn't). Once you add all that crap, plus the fact that everyone is scrambling for their backup knife or other battlefield debris to be used as a weapon and screaming for their buddies to stab their opponent in the eyes. (Heck I'd yank my helmet off and change his world view with a kevlar transplant to the face and collarbones).

Even if you were not in an "inferior" position with regards to submission fighting, having a guy on top of you is an inferior position on the battlefield when he's got buddies who can stomp on your head or cave it in with a handy implement.

So I think that the ideal groundfighting battlefield skills are those that help you get out of that position and into another, preferably behind a weapon.

That's my two cents.

Tim

[Jaron Bernstein]

Makes sense. I wasn't thinking of that whole gear and multiple opponent thing. I just have seen people work from their backs just as well if not better than on their feet, but as you say, that is in controlled (single combat, on a soft mat, with only your gi and not 50 pounds of gear) circumstances that real life may not give you.

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[JeffGentry]

Tim

I totaly agree with you, if i try to throw someone and go down i want to get up quickly to get a weapon, if they are throwing me i want to take them down with me, most infantry men i know and i have known a few carried at least one knife most had 2(kabar and a bayonet.

As for the helmet heck yea if that is the first thing i grab it is going to land right upside someone's head and they did wear helmet's in the "old day's".

i am not a fan of ground fighting it is something we should look at, considering the fact that there was, wet grass blood, body part's, sheild's, sword's, knive's, spear's, more than likely laying around and you may just go to throw someone and step on something and fall with them, so getting up quick would be a legitimate skill.

is MHO.

Jeff

[GeorgeHill]

Casper said:
"I seriously doubt any art prior to the modern age seriously focused on ground fighting as its central aspect outside of the sporting arena, however rough."

I don't know about WMA and the ground, but I do understand there was atleast one Chinese art that focused on ground fighting, the Dog branch of animal style kung fu. The idea is you roll on your back, kick with your legs, crawl on your hands and knees, donkey kick, and do all sorts of other stuff I have no idea how to actually make use of. "Ground fighting" (Which I don't claim any expertise of) is potentially very versatile.

As to pankration, I imagine if you were knocked down, and someone was holding you there for his buddie to stick with a spear, it would be a fine idea to have some way of getting out from under him.

Through a lot of this thread, I see that it seems to be a question of being on top or bottom, but that's not the limit of groundfighting. It's not all being on top or on bottom, it's being very very low, and in theory, groundfighting styles incorperate anything low. I 'imagine' that those who really study groundfighting have 'something' prepared for someone standing and attempting to kick them in the head.

I'm NOT saying it's a good idea to choose to fight on the ground, just that it can be very advanced, and that there is that Chinese dog style that focuses on it.

I think monkey style may also have some of what we'd consider groundfighting, but I don't know.