Grip and Swing technique

[Matt Bruskotter]

I've recently joined my local ARMA group and I was wondering what techniques there are to holding and swinging a standard long sword. I've had some kendo training and know that you mainly grip and swing the Japanese sword with your left hand gripping mainly with the bottom two fingers. Is there such a technique for the long sword? I haven't attended any seminars but I plan on attending the one in Lancaster OH coming up in a few days. Will that be explained then? Thanks.

[Allen Johnson]

Welcome! I would suggest taking a look at this article: http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

Here you can see the basic guards and also clearly see how the sword is being held in each guard. As you go through your cuts and movements the grip will shift some in your hands. Since there are many, MANY more cuts and strikes available to historical longsword than kendo play, there isnt one static grip that incorporated all cuts.

[James_Knowles]

Matthew,

You should get your fill at the seminar. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

But in brief, get a comfortable grip with the left hand. This will vary with the sword.

Remember that there's a pommel unlike a shinai or katana. On some swords and wasters I have my hand above the pommel, on others, a couple fingers on the pommel. Sometimes you may slip your grip and just grab the pommel. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

You need to have a firm but relaxed grip since you'll be rotating the sword around to work with both edges.

[Matt Bruskotter]

For which swords do you grab the pommel? Since classifying swords is a little confusing to me. Single hand swords are obvious, but what about bastard to long sword? As I understand it, a bastard sword has a little longer tang than a single hand, but isn't as long as a typical long sword handle. Well, how about an article explaining the differences in swords and I'll just research that part myself. I have a feeling there is no standard "bastard" or "long sword." So confusing and interesting! I'd also like to know because I'm making my own wasters soon. No one seems to have a generic blade length or handle length. Any opinions on the dimensions of a typical bastard and/or long sword? I read a lot about Oakeshot.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

By all the respect Matthew, do not try to approach WMA just like you would any EMA, like Iaido. If it is right or not is not my thing to judje, yet japaneese arts seem to concentrate more on general rules like gripping the right way, holding in the right angle etc., than does the art of the medieval ages in europe.
That dose NOT mean that it's less sophisticated; it's just that we are talking about a fighting stíle which was certainly used in real battles. I'm almost certain that Iaido, the way the people of today know it, was never used in a 6 hour battle with rain, mud , distress, shock, terror and pain. For if you would be fighting in a battle - or duell - of this kind, we call 'real' fight (hope nobody ever has to participate in anything like that), the least thing you'd be concerned about is, if your grip has 2 or 3 fingers on the pommel or not.

Simply grab the sword like you mean it!

On the swords, there would be soooo much to say. Many terms are misunderstood, many are simply new-born and not true medieval names (like 'one-and-a-half hand sword' which stands for the longsword in fantasy literature).

The longsword, which is our primary weapon in Hungary, has a blade of 90-103 cms (90 is average), and a grip which is about 23-25 cms long + the pommel. There were many historical grips which are completelly different from each other and need different approach (like in Talhoffer's 209 ed. the ones with the dorns!), and there are much more modern pommels, which can be just as good. An average medieval pommel is either round like a disc or has that special ship-form. In Hungary, in the Black Knighly Army of Mathias Corvinus, the pommels of the longswords were square and quite flat.


byez,

Szabolcs

[Matt Bruskotter]

I agree. My friend has been in kendo much longer than I have and he appears to be convinced that they are extremely similar (WMA to EMA) while I disagree. I think he expects them to be the same. The EMA did seem to focus on the perfection of everything from the grip to what you yell when you strike to how you unsheathed the sword. It all has a technique. Personally, I'd rather not be as specific on the perfection of my strike and leave it up to personal preference. I think that's what makes me more attracted to WMA, it fits my style more than the EMA does.

[Andrew Kesterson]

If it is right or not is not my thing to judje, yet japaneese arts seem to concentrate more on general rules like gripping the right way, holding in the right angle etc., than does the art of the medieval ages in europe.

That's because a proper grip will help you leverage the sword better while allowing you to keep from binding when moving through cuts and kamae. And proper angle of the blade will prevent you from bending the blade when striking (even the best blade, if struck on the edge at the wrong angle, can bend). It's all physics that apply to WMA just the same as EMA.

I'm almost certain that Iaido, the way the people of today know it, was never used in a 6 hour battle with rain, mud , distress, shock, terror and pain.

No, it wouldn't. But that's because Iaido is "the way of drawing the sword" (literally translated). The whole idea was that if you could draw your sword quickly enough, there would be no swordfight. Kenjutsu, however, was more of a classical swordfighting art, and it was used in a great many battles in the mud, rain, snow, and any kind of muck for hours on end. Plenty of samurai killed, and were killed, by it.

the least thing you'd be concerned about is, if your grip has 2 or 3 fingers on the pommel or not.

That's because you would've trained in your sword art so much, that proper grip would've been ingrained into you, and you would benefit from a proper, strong, flexible grip - and the physics it would impart to your strikes.

(start rant here...) You know, I hear all too often, people say "this is a WESTERN martial art, not an EASTERN one!"... Let's face it - there are only a certain number of ways a sword can be used. It's an extremely simple device in design and function, regardless of the elegance of its manufacture or artforms associated with it. The sword is a wedge attached to a lever, and let's face it - when it comes to the basic ways of gripping it and swinging it, it's all pretty much the same. If you look at a Kenjutsu manual alongside a Western longsword manual, you'll see a great number of similarities. The footwork is basically the same, the strikes are all the same (you can only swing a sword in so many directions), and even alot of the stances/kamae are similar. The tail guard, the hanging guard, guard of the window, and high/low/middle guard of course all exist in eastern sword forms (kenjutsu being my example here), though under different names. You still have one hand steering the sword, and one hand providing the power. it's all basically the same!

So to all those people saying that the WMA approach to swords is drastically different from the EMA approach, I have to respectfully disagree. It's just not that kind of complex.

Okay, rant off.

[Matt Bruskotter]

I have no doubt it's mostly the same, I am just confused because in kendo we don't have pommels and gripping a long sword like my shinai is a little akward. It feels more comfortable to grip with the top two fingers of the left hand just above the pommel. Also, using the short edge is completely new. Should you use the bottom left fingers when using the short edge or do you change your grip? WMA is a little more comfortable due to the language used, the german terminology is slightly similar to english. Japanese is really hard for me to understand. Maybe I was hoping that I wouldn't have to be as perfectionistic. It's like learning something you thought you knew already all over again!

Also, I still think there are differences worth studying, otherwise why are we studying this at all if they are so similar? I don't think it's as easy as just trading swords, but that's probably not what you mean. Otherwise I'd be a lot better! I probably shouldn't be saying much since I"m a new student but I see a lot of differences already though 88% appears to be the same (not an accurate percentage.) <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Especially the kata. Maybe i'm inclined to notice the differences since I've been in kendo before ARMA. I know your response wasn't directed at me but I didn't mean to turn this into an East vs West discussion.

[Andrew Kesterson]

That's probably why I don't like the single handed swords, because I'm so used to gripping katana style. Hand and a half grips can be gripped in much the same way, as can most other longswords that have a decent size grip.

[James_Knowles]

For which swords do you grab the pommel?

Any and all for which it's comfortable. If the pommel is too uncomfortable to grip the top, put the off hand above the pommel. Keep your dominant hand up by the cross.

In short, the answer is where it allows one to retain a firm but flexible grip. No complicating rules per sword. After handling a variety of swords, it should be self-evident what all these words mean.

(OK... excepting single-handed swords; those handles only allow for one hand between cross and pommel, so I would assume that's obvious.) <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

...classifying swords is a little confusing...

This is discussed in another thread.

One can get overworked about splitting hairs, but from my reading the manuals, the original terminology is quite broad. I think it may be us moderners that confuse things.

One typically sees four types of wording for swords:

• schwert - sword, can refer to single hand
  
• lange[n] schwert - normal sword with two-handed grip; encompasses many modern distinctions (of no great importance)
  
• zweihaende[r] (or doppelhaende[r]) - great sword with extra long blade and grip --- a true "two hander"
  
• messer and other specialized swords
  

In summary, the longsword is the foundational weapon, with all others being more specialized.

Also, my current understanding of "bastard" sword is that it's not a matter of length (as my RPG-educated brain once thought), but of blade shape --- a tapering longsword between a wide cutting blade and the narrow thrusting blade that can both cut and thrust fairly well (but not as well as the more "pure" forms), i.e. a "bastard" or object of neither category.

[James_Knowles]

Also, using the short edge is completely new. Should you use the bottom left fingers when using the short edge or do you change your grip?

You'll learn this at a 1.0 seminar, but your grip will shift around slightly to accomidate the desired technique. Even with the dominant hand by the cross, you'll need to make slight shifts.

Two examples:

• The grip for the powerful zornhau will probably be familiar. No shifting; a good, solid grip; massive momentum from arm extension, simultaneous footwork, and vocalization.
  
• A plunging cut (a type of oberhau with the short edge) will probably require the dominent hand to shift slightly as the wrist turns. Depending on the details of the cut (e.g. range, targeting, current momentum), you may release the grip for the weak hand to let the pommel rotate in the palm and fingers, and use the palm of the hand to provide leverage needed for a strong "snap."
  

With your past experience, it should be readily understood that actually working correct technique with the sword in hand will clarify things much better than words.

It's like learning something you thought you knew already all over again!

Yeah. A blessing and a curse.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hi Andrew, <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome to ARMA

"there are only a certain number of ways a sword can be used. It's an extremely simple device in design and function, regardless of the elegance of its manufacture or artforms associated with it. The sword is a wedge attached to a lever, and let's face it - when it comes to the basic ways of gripping it and swinging it, it's all pretty much the same. "

I gotta disagree here with you. Yes, the basic 8 cutting angles are the same with a katana, a longsword or a stick for that matter. But, the longsword is straight and has a short edge that a katana (or a Dusack in WMA terms for that matter) does not. That makes a big difference. Especially as you get further along with the longsword and you use the short edge just as much as the long edge. When you do this, your grip shifts around a lot in ways it doesn't with a katana. Check out the illustrations (especially the grips as it bears on this discussion) in the Meyer text and you will see what I mean.

[M Wallgren]

No, it wouldn't. But that's because Iaido is "the way of drawing the sword" (literally translated). The whole idea was that if you could draw your sword quickly enough, there would be no swordfight. Kenjutsu, however, was more of a classical swordfighting art, and it was used in a great many battles in the mud, rain, snow, and any kind of muck for hours on end. Plenty of samurai killed, and were killed, by it.

I think he ment Kenjutzu.

And yep in that aspect the are very simmilar...

And in many ways they are quite close in comparisson.

[Jake_Norwood]

I'm with Jaron on this one. When I started out I saw lots of similarities. Now, I see lots of differences.

I mean, sure, a sword is a sword is a sword, and there will be a lot of crossover. But the presence of a pommel and a cross are a big deal. The short edge (back edge) is an even bigger deal. There is, to my knowledge, *nothing* that resembles a zwerchhauw or veller with the short edge--zucken and all--in japanese swordsmanship. And although you're probably not familiar with those techniques yet, they constitute some of the most important ones. Doebringer says that the zwerch is the best of all the cuts. Of all of them! And it isn't possible with a katana or other single-edged sword. (I will add a caveat that although we often refer to the messer as a single-edged sword, it's not. It has a second "short" edge that really is only a few inches long...but it's there).

As for grip...

I find that if I apply more pressure with my last two fingers of my dominant hand than with the first two it's easier to torque the blade at the proper moment, so in that there is a similarity. OTOH, the bottom hand at least partially grips the pommel, depending on the type of pommel (wheel pommels will be gripped with the bottom two fingers, "scent stopper" pommels with the bottom two fingers or even the whole hand, ball pommels with one or no fingers, etc.). A comfortable, flexible grip that maximizes on leverage is the issue.

(note: I'm talking about gripping a two-handed sword, such as a longsword, greatsword, or bastard sword here)

When swinging you want to coordinate your step (usually a passing step traversing out at about 45 degrees with a following recovering pivot back with the foot that you just passed by) so that the foot hits the ground when your arms are fully extended and the torque of your hips and arms delivers the blow in the position of "langort" (long point). If you strike from the right, step from the right, etc.

I hope that isn't too confusing.

Jake

[Justin Toliver]

quote from Usagiya
"KISSAKI-MOROHA-ZUKURI
The forward part of the blade is double edged. an example: sword19
A curved blade type is especially called "Kogarasu-maru" style.
"Kogarasu-maru" is a name of one very famous sword in curved kissaki-moroha-zukuri.
It was a treasure of the Taira family in 12th century, and now in the imperial collection"

This is not a common blade design with the Katana or Tachi but it dose exist and all tho I know little of Japanese sword arts it makes sense that there may have ben a sub school that taught the use of just such a blade