Zornhau;The least masterful of Ringecks Meisterhau

[philippewillaume]

hello shane
I posted that on an other forum (sorry for the doubling), but i wonder what you would think of it

I believe that the master haws are just a way to end up an oberhaw. I.e just a way to alter the trajectory. Or to put it another way they are all modification of the same strike.

The zhorn is just the most natural way.
You crook the stike with the krump
The cut is athwart with the zwerch
You extend your arms to the left with the sheil
And you stay high with the shietel

In all the case we alter the trajectory, we could see the zhorn is the kind of initial, unaltered trajectory. The simplest expression of the system principle.

Lue: I believe you can execute any binden technique from any masterhaw. I do not think the zornh is less predictable than the rest.
If I am using then as the absetzen, I almost never know how my oberhaw are going to finish. IE I do not know what master haw I will end up doing, but you still can bo any binding technique from there.

If nothing else ringeck tells us you can use the zornh to break the Zwerch.

Philippe

[Shane Smith]

Interesting thoughts Philippe. I don't see how a zwerch could be considered an ending place for an oberhau however. As a horizontal-ish cut from vom tag, I perform it by simply throwing my right hand forward and pulling my left back(From my right side). There is no discernible downward motion as far as I can see unless I strike a low zwerch to the arms or midsection. Can you clarify a bit?

[philippewillaume]

Hello Shane
I understand where you are coming from. May be I can convince my company to send me to the US … (they are Texas based).

As I said, It is still very caricature but with a bit of luck we should understand each other.

Logically speaking the initial extension of the arms is the same whatever the strike.
You finish the masterhaw as you step.

The initial extension is the way Dobringer tell us to strike (well the way I understand it….)
So you do not pull the pommel whatsoever, you just punch your hands forward and let the sword balance itself.
So if I do not move I will end up in long ort the left foot in front or in alber on the left) depending upon if I drop the arms at the end of the extension.
So there no reall down war component to the initial bit of the strike, if that make some sense.

That is the strike I initiate all the masterhaw, of course you do not let go to that extend
The “finish the masterhaw as you step” blend into that before completion.

So for the zwerch, it will star as such and as I move my right foot forward and to the right, I will take the left ox from somewhere in the initial trajectory.
That is done by moving the front hand and not pulling on the pommel.

I find that doing it like that increases the range of the swerch and make the strike more versatile.
And it takes care of some nasty von tag where the guy holds it with the cross at shoulder level.

If things go as internet disussion usually goes, that post should have confused you even more than before we started <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Willaume,
I worked with your idea some a bit this past week and after reading your last post, perhaps it is simply a matter of when one leaves vom tag. I throw the hilt straight forward with my right hand to cover my head with the cross immediately as I step across and cut under the arms or at the head of my opponent.The blade goes horizontal almost immediately in order that my body be protected from any attempt to counter on my opponents part, as at worst, I end with a bind on his forearms. I still see no oberhau motion.

[philippewillaume]

hello shane
thanks for trying...
I will try to get hold of a video so that you can see what I mean.
i think it is a matter on how we set up the stunt and if we are talking about breaking a static guard or using the zwech as an abzetsen against a vertical cut.

if you do not mind trying again
Hold the sword with both hands on the handle (à la dobringer)
without moving your feet strike in longort
from there wind to the left uper hanging as you step out of the centerline to your right.

Ie like shiel but not staying on the centerline

the "problem" as i see it with moving your hand straight into the zwrech is that you loose control of the centerline.

It is not so much of a problemwhen countering the veritcal strike
if he attacked it is probaly because he had the centreline but it can be a feint so that we end up in a situation equivalent to the situation we find ourselves in a static guard

static guard :
if you have your partner hold his sword in von tag on the shoulder (as in close to the shoulder) and you start at a distance where you have to take a step to hit him.

he has two ways of countering your Zwerch.
one is moving is front foot (ie the left) back and craking a Zorhn (that is fine that is how you can break the Zwerch)

or he can swerch or duck under the trajectory of the blade and hit our arms and protect himself,(this is a stike in the spirit of a changing through.)
He can only do domething like that because the instant we raise our hands in the swerch we loose control of the center line

Do I make more sense?
Generally speaking this is the breaking of a static guard that lead me to this oberhaw theory.

all that being said it may not happen to you or you may catter for it in another way or we are doing the same thing and describe it differently.

Are you going in the Arma sweden thing ? my wife is swedish so I could meet you there (if that does not cause any problem).

Philippe

[John_Clements]

I believe Phillip is making good sense here. It at least seems to me consistant with what I have been doing.

JC

[philippewillaume]

thanks, john