Seeking a 'Hirschfanger'/'Jagddegen'/'Jagdschwert'

[ChrisThies]

The topic of the hunting pursuits of Medieval and Renaissance fighting men has occasionally come up during some of our discussions (both public & private). I certainly don't wish to diverge anyone from their main study and practice of the Western martial heritage, but I do have a HYPOTHETICAL question regarding this related historical sub-topic that perhaps someone may be able to answer.

HYPOTHETICAL question:
If you [the modern historical fencer] were to take a break from your studies, and go to the field armed with an edged weapon with the intent to harvest a wild boar in the quickest, most humane way, what would be your choice for the most suitable, practical, modern reproduction of a historic edged hunting dagger/sword?

I could only find one modern reference to medieval and renaissance hunting knives, and this in a book entitled, "Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany, Volume 1" by LTC Thomas Johnson & Thomas Wittman, 1988. In Chapter 6, 'The Imperial Hirschfanger' by Carl Righter (p.266-309), there is much information about the Hirschfanger, a term which the author cites as first appearing in a book in 1664 (p.270), at which time the word apparently replaced the word 'Weidmesser' (a wider skinning, seax type knife). There is an interesting "Evolution of the Hirschfanger" evolution chart (p.308), which I can't reproduce account of that Copyright thingy. But to summarize, the Hirschfanger was preceded by not only the Weidmesser, but also the Jagddegen and the Jagdschwert. Depending upon if you wanted to trace its evolution back towards the sax [saxartige messer], dagger [dolch], or sword [schwert].

Does anyone know of either any suitable, practical modern reproductions for any of these above categories? Or perhaps someone knows of other references to help narrow the search for my HYPOTHETICAL question/scenerio?

Thanks for your time.

[Jaron Bernstein]

There is something I have seen called a boar spear which had a sort of lug below the head to prevent the boar from coming up the spear shaft once skewered and returning the favor.

[Jared L. Cass]

Ahhh, a subject near to my heart <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Chris, you may want to do some browsing and or posting here: http://knifenetwork.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&amp;f=51&amp;page=1&amp;pp=25&amp;sort=lastpost&amp;order=desc&amp;daysprune=-1

That link should take you to their "historical inpiration" forum. You might be able to find what you need there.

I used to have a bunch of collected digital pictures of "non combat" historical knives. I'll see if I can find the disk that they are on.

If you do a google search for "boar spear" and or "boar sword" you should be able to find some good info and pictures.

Another online source I really like is here: http://www.bnf.fr/enluminures/themes/t_4/ast_4_01.htm

That's from the bnf's webmuseum dedicated to the "age of Charles the 5th. http://www.bnf.fr/site_bnf_eng/expos/index.htm

Let me know what you find in reguards to your current line of thought!

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[david welch]

Jake Norwood and I at one point were talking about taking a spear and a messer and going on a boar hunt... there are places that are set up to do the spear hunts.

Maybe we need to be thinking about an unofficial ARMA hunt... ?

[David_Knight]

There is an outfitter here in South Florida, Ron's Guide Service, who specializes in feral hog hunting with primitive weapons (we actually have a large wild boar population in the agricultural regions thanks to Spanish settlers in the 1600s; they're classified as nuisance animals, so permits are not required). His guests have used knives, spears, hatchets, and even katanas to slay some impressive beasts.

I purchased two Cold Steel Boar Spears a few years ago (a quality weapon) but haven't been able to find a hunting partner. If anyone is interested in a summer hunt, please contact me!

[ChrisThies]

Thanks for the links Jared. Those 15th C. hunting images from the "Book of the Hunt" (Gaston Phoebus) at the Bibliotheque Nationale de France are tres cool! I posted seeking info on period German edged hunting implements account that's currently all I have to work with sourcewise. But if anyone is aware of any other designated edged hunting weapons from other period regions (France, Russia, etc.) I'd be very interested.

I am currently tracking down some leads for further information on hirschfanger, jagddegen, and jagdschwert (although the source I mentioned above in my initial post appears to cover the hirschfanger quite well). I'll have to wait about a month for another source that's specific to the Deutsches Jagdmuseum in Munich, which may shed more light on the jagddegen and jagdschwert.

As far as modern replicas go, I've found a couple hirschfangers online. One is made by a reputable maker (in business since 1764) out of Solingen, and they also make a boar spear head. But they're both made out of 440 C steel <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" /> , so they may be historical in shape, but are ahistorical in steel.

I've given some thought to period replica daggers, most of which are double edged with sharp points that are great for penetrating light armor, etc. But I think that for historic hunting applications the tips would be desired to be of a more wider, 'spear point', or spatulate shape versus coming to a sharp, needlelike point. Since penetration would be less an issue, with delivery of maximum damage to a vital organ primary.

P.S. I never realized that the 'knife' community was so huge! I've bumped into a couple more forums such as the one you linked above. I'll let you know if I 'tree' any useful info.

[Jared L. Cass]

"Maybe we need to be thinking about an unofficial ARMA hunt... ?"

Dude...count me in! I'd be there in a second!

This is dangerously off topic, but I'd be curious to see how Texas is on non-residant hunting. MAybe we could plan something to coincide with the August Texas gathering? If this sounds cool to anybody, email me.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jared L. Cass]

No prob, Chris!

I actually ordered a number of books reciently that deal with medieval/renisance hunting practices. as soon as I recieve them and read them, I'll let you know if I come up with any more info you may like.

I'm also hoping that maybe they'll provide additional info concerning specific martial training in reguards to the nobility (rather than just for food/survival of the common folk) since we constantly see hunting presented in a way to keep/maintain ones fighting skills.

"I've given some thought to period replica daggers, most of which are double edged with sharp points that are great for penetrating light armor, etc. But I think that for historic hunting applications the tips would be desired to be of a more wider, 'spear point', or spatulate shape versus coming to a sharp, needlelike point. Since penetration would be less an issue, with delivery of maximum damage to a vital organ primary."

From what I've seen/researched on the topic of "non combat" knives, you're right on. Many of the blade shapes/designs are the same as we today use...that is: drop point, clip point, ect. Though blade length seems to have been abit longer than we use. My thoughts on this are that they were also probably (but not always) using their knives to quarter/section the game in the field rather than just fielddress it.

Oh, how could I forget, the book "An Historical Guide to Arms and Armor" by Stephen Bull has a chapter in it specifically on "Sporting Arms and Armour". Your local library might have it.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

A boar hunt with spear's? I would be interested you may want to check the hunting reg's they may not consider that a legtimate hunting weapon(ie inhumane), and I have heard of boar hunt's with knive's and they normaly use dog's because a wild hog can be extremely dangerous.

A hunt one day and a pug roast and some sparring and class's the next.

Jeff

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Jeff.

It is legal in some states. There's a business in one of the Carolinas that takes people out to do it.

Jake

[JeffGentry]

Jake

That was i said(or should have said) they need to check the local hunting reg's, I am not sure what state's it is legal in, here in Ohio a spear isn't a legal hunting weapon.


I would like to try it though.

Jeff

[ChrisThies]

Texas has a 5 day, $45 non-resident hunting license (Type 157). If you click on the 'exotic animals' link in that portion of their online regs you'll see that 'feral hogs' are open year round.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/annual/hunt/licenses/index.phtml

[Jared L. Cass]

Chris (and everybody else), here's a link to some period working knives that might interest you. http://www.medievalwares.com/medievalironantiquities.htm

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[ChrisThies]

Thanks Jared, there are some good examples of tip variations there. There are also many later examples viewable at various online antique weapons dealers, such as this Spanish drop point example: http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/mew173.htm

And there's an illustrated/detailed description of a French 'Couteau de chasse' with a round, spatulate tip in this excellent source for 'Damascus' type steel manufacture. It's a partial translation (of Chapter 29, 'Maniere de faire l'Acier facon de Damas') of "L'Art du Coutelier", by Jean Jacques Perret (1771). HIGHLY recommended read for anyone interested in Damascus type pattern welding: http://damascus.free.fr/f_damas/f_hist/perret.htm

So far I've burned up alot of scarce training time investigating these historical hunting edged weapons &amp; the modern available replicas. There is just SO much information that can be assembled, filtered, and presented in a useable format, and SO little time. I thought I'd just mention a couple highlights so as to give any future Armateer interested in pursuing this topic a head start so as not to waste too much valuable training time:

The forms of available modern replicas range from an unusual lugged long sword:
http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item918.html
and spear heads such as David Knight mentioned above, some hand forged ones available here:
http://www.pumaknives.de
or
http://weberknives.com/original_hirschkrone_blades_boar_spear_blades.htm

to the bulk of the modern availability, namely hunting daggers &amp; hunting swords for any period, from medieval forward. This portion of available items are manufactured worldwide, ranging from junky stamped steel wall hanger versions to presumably quality hand forged implements. But regretably most are of stainless steel manufacture. I'm concerned that any examples linked may be misconstrued as an implicit recommendation, here's just two random examples:
http://www.hubertus-solingen.de
http://www.aceros-de-hispania.com

Also, historic terms used for designated edged hunting weapons (such as 'hirschfaenger', or 'couteau de chasse', etc.) are applied in the modern arena without much regard to their historical application.