Interesting cross training yesterday

[Justin Blackford]

The other day, a friend of a friend invited me to cross train with him after his kenjutsu class. We met at his house and talked about historical Western and Eastern martial arts before getting to it. He was decently informed on Medieval weapons history, although he thought that great-swords were smaller than bastard-swords and I had to tell him that he had it the other way around.
We wrapped our wooden weapons in foam(just in case) and went to work. He started out trying to do a lot of fancy behind the back stuff involving the switching of hands, hopping about, fast changing of postures, etc., but the moment he pulled his weapon back, he received a thrust to central mass. After being defeated 13 times in a row, he started to realize that he needed to keep his movements simpler and tighter and forget all of that "Matrix" style crap he was trying to incorporate into the fight.
After 28 solid bouts between his Katana and my Langenschwert, he only got one move past me( a thrust to my wrist when I accidently overextended myself on a zornhau). The other 27 times, he never had a chance.
After we got some water and caught our breath, he was seriously impressed by my performance. I explained how I got to studying the the Liechtenaur, Meyer, Von Danzig, Ringeck, Talhoffer style of German longsword combat, and he replied, "Well, Liechtenaur's style is quite intimidating. You are quite well versed and disciplined in his art."
Even though he received the butt-whooping of a lifetime, he still had it in him to show respect for a fellow artist. The strange thing was, he actually recognized a few of the moves I was doing. I had tried to pull some half-swording and even a murder stroke against him in one of our bouts, and he knew what they were. I was surprised since most practitioners of kenjutsu that I have met know little or nothing about techniques that involve blade grabbing.
But that just goes to show you, "Never assume you're the only one who knows."

Justin

[Jake_Norwood]

Awesome. How long have the pair of you been training in your separate arts?

Jake

[Matt_Bruskotter]

I've seen kendo practitioners use a certain small attack. They bring their sword in close, almost against thier chest, and make a small quick downward attack to their opponent usually to thier wrists and usually followed by a full overhead swing to the head. I was wondering if this quick attack works with a long sword. Any kendo followers out there that know what I'm talking about? I saw a video of John C showing how ineffective a short attack is when he was test-cutting in the video section but does that mean to completely rule it out? Does this attack have a name in WMA? Thanks.

[Jaron Bernstein]

Sans the larger following attack, isn't there something called the "garden hoe" that resembles, well, hoeing a garden with short quick nipping cuts?

[Jay Vail]

Dobringer describes a blow called the “weed hoe” which is performed from the fool’s guard called in this passage the “iron gate”:

“One technique is called the weed hoe, and it comes from the iron gate, with your point thrusting straight up from the ground at the opponent and then down again. This is a strong technique when it is done correctly with a step straight forward, each time you thrust up you should step forward.”

The “garden hoe” sounds like it is the same technique. Therefore, it is a series of thrusts from the fool.

[Matt_Bruskotter]

That sounds about right but these kendo guys usually do it from the middle guard (plow). Doing it from the lower guard sounds pretty good too. I'll have to drill that.

[Justin Blackford]

We've been training together for two weeks. I went to his kenjutsu class a couple days ago. Interseting stuff, but overall, all they do is rehearsed routines(kata). Even when they do get to do some level of freeplay(which is reserved for brown belts and higher), they still limit the types of techniques that can be used.
This is probably what led to his untimely demise(in theory, of course!). Nothing but rehearsed techniques under a restricted rule set.
My other friends and I have been training in the Liechtenaur, Ringeck, Doebringer style of longsword for several months now. Kind of scary in a sense to see in free play just how effective Liechtenaur's stuff really is. He was kind of a shadowy figure anyway. Not much on him.
But, we are getting together again to cross-train next week. He's thinking of using a bigger jin-tachi style sword to compensate for the length of my German langenschwert. We're also thinking of training katana and wakisashi against my rapier and dagger(or cloak, whatever I'm in the mood for that day). Also, the thought of going with no-dachi against the zweihander has popped in our heads as well. We're trying to use weapons of similar lengths to make it "fair". I'll let you guys know how these events turn out when we get the chance.

Justin

[Chris Thompson]

>He started out trying to do a lot of fancy behind the back stuff involving the switching of hands, hopping about, fast changing of postures, etc., but the moment he pulled his weapon back, he received a thrust to central mass>

That does not sound like legitimate kenjutsu technique. If you ever see a demonstration of genuine koryu ("Old schools"- the styles that began in the feudal era) you'll see no "flashy" or "Matrix" type tactics, but simple and direct attacks and counters very similar to longsword. Also, genuine koryu, with very few exceptions, don't use a belt system for ranking, but the older system of menkyo, somewhat similar to our scholar-provost-master system. There are a great many pseudo-kenjutsu schools out there, and very few legit koryu in America. It sounds like what you were facing was not kenjutsu at all, but a made-up modern style posing as kenjutsu- sadly, this is all too common.

-Chris Thompson

p.s.- Koryu have a theory of training that is very different from that found in WMA, including the theory that properly performed kata should be central to training. But some koryu do "free fence" at a higher level of training. If you're curious, check out Ellis Amdur's articles about the Araki Ru at koryu.com.

[Justin Blackford]

Chris,

That was pretty much what I figured. I believe George Silver coined it perfectly when he called such instructors "False teachers of fence". My friend's school would seem to be led by some of these characters.
When I was in Aikido several years back, I got up to the brown belt level before my school closed down. (The reason it closed was because they kept expecting us to throw down money every time another seminar popped up out of nowhere; trying to get us to spend $600-$700 round trip to go to New York or Chicago or wherever as soon as the higher-ups said we had to or we couldn't test for our next belt; so everybody quit.)
Anyway, when I was up to the brown belt level, it started to involve a lot of weapons work, particularly katana katas. However, all we did was katas. We never got any free play, because all of the instructors there were just teaching and practicing rehearsed techniques. Sure, it made them look good because they had rehearsed it already a thousand times.
But, in an event that they had to do freeplay, I would bet you anything that I or anybody else here could mop the floor with such pseudo-swordfighters.
They were teaching us specifically edge-on-edge parrying on full 90 degree swings because "the samurai sword was invincible, and the edge could not break". I never bought that crap for a second. We were also trained to never even touch the edges of our sword(which was just a bokken) because "the edge is so sharp that it can cut paper on contact, and if your finger touches it, it will sever it clean". <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> !!! That made no sense to me! If the edge is so strong it can't be destroyed even from powerful edge-on-edge parries and yet so sharp that it sever things instantly, it clearly defies all the laws of physics. Edges get more delicate as they sharpen. Unless the katana to which my instructors were referring was actually some fantasy sword from "Final Fantasy" or "Mystic Realms" or some crap like that, I knew that they were speaking out of stuff they must have heard from popular media, or just plain invented themselves. I figured this out then, and I was only 10 years old. I didn't need a physics class to figure out all the dumb stuff they were trying to feed me. That's why I am so honestly surprised to see so many people out there who still believe that the katana was like a light sabre.
Don't get me wrong, the real katana was a very fine weapon with an intricate art wielded by very exceptional warriors. But these "false teachers of fence" are spreading quite a bit of misinformation. Something which certain students of pseudo-martial arts have to learn the hard way when they experience some freeplay.

Justin

[Jaron Bernstein]

I can't speak for the katana (never swung one). But today we cut a big ham up with comparatively dull ("kitchen knife sharp") western swords and it took very little effort to take go clean through what on a person would be a limb's thickness of meat and bone.

[Chris Thompson]

>However, all we did was katas. We never got any free play, because all of the instructors there were just teaching and practicing rehearsed techniques>

Aiki-ken (Aikido swordplay) is not combative swordsmanship and was not intended to be. It's simply meant to be an adjunct to your aikido training, though some aikido people are unaware of this. However, plenty of legitimate Japanese sword traditions focus on kata instead of freeplay- in fact, even in the schools which allow freeplay, it's considered secondary to kata. This isn't wrong or bad, it's just a different teaching method based on a different theory of what best prepares a swordsman for real combat. Remember, while kata is not a real swordfight, freplay isn't either. They're both just training tools.
For a detailed discussion of the true role of kata and the controversies surrounding it, read Dr Karl Friday's "Legacies of the Sword."

>They were teaching us specifically edge-on-edge parrying on full 90 degree swings because "the samurai sword was invincible, and the edge could not break">

That's obviously nonsense, however, there are also plenty of legitimate Japanese sword arts that use the edge parry. For instance, Yagyu Nobuharu, headmaster of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu (the style of the Tokugawa shoguns) recently announced that parries in the Yagyu Ryu are indeed to be performed with the edge, and said that trying to avoid the edge parry was "such an Americanization."

[Jaron Bernstein]

Hmmm....


This is a quote concerning that very (ahem <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) point from this site:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/damagededge.htm

"It should be noted that the same physical laws regarding edge damage also apply to the use of traditional Asian swords. For example, in one interview an expert of the Japanese, Daito-Ryu style, senior swordmaster Tokimune Takeda noted: “In order to cut your opponent, you need to set the blade of your sword in a specific position; you need to turn your sword this way [gesturing]. You receive your opponent’s sword with the [blunt] back of your sword and then you turn your sword to cut him. This is not how you hit your opponent with a bokken [wooden sword]. Since a real sword has a sharp blade, you need to receive your opponent’s blade with the back of your sword. You should not receive it with your blade [edge] because if you do so using a real sword, the blade will be nicked. But if you receive your opponent’s sword with the back of your sword and then go to cut him with your blade, the cutting edge will never be nicked.” However, the interview author also comments that: “Other classical sword schools, such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto-ryu, the Yagyu Shinkage-ryu and the Tatsumi-ryu, taught to receive cuts with either the side of the blade or the lower edge. This is because the metal making up the back of a Japanese sword is softer, and a direct blow to the back of the blade would 'likely' cause it to snap.

Practitioners of these schools were evidently willing to risk a nick to avoid breaking the sword.” (Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu: Conversations with Daito-ryu Masters, edited by Stanley A. Pranin. Koryu Books, 2000. Copyright 1995 by Aiki News.) However, noted swordsmith Paul Champagne, who studies the historical technology of both European and Asian blades, notes that softer steel, by its nature, does not "snap" but rather, simply dings more easily. He adds that not all of the construction techniques for Japanese swords had soft backs. A strong cut on the back can cause an edge defect to open up with the natural rebound of the blade. (Personal correspondence with the author, September, 2004). In contrast to Japanese, Medieval European cutting-swords do not have an outer layer of softer metal and were designed to be especially resilient when receiving blows on their flat sides."

As to the value of forms vs. freeplay, there is some need for form work and katas. Or in ARMA terms stance transitions, cutting drills and flourishing as we don't really have long set katas in the Japanese sense. But, my experience in other martial arts besides this one is that without free sparring as at least 50% of your training time, you are just not going to develop a skill you can use against resisting competent opponents. That goes for any art, not just this one IMO. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Chris Thompson]

>But, my experience in other martial arts besides this one is that without free sparring as at least 50% of your training time, you are just not going to develop a skill you can use against resisting competent opponents>

Traditional kata training isn't the same as what most dojos do these days. See Dave Lowry's "Autumn Lightning" and "Persimmon Wind" for a full description, but the process seems to be to do the kata "as written" until the student has reached a fairly high level of technical competence, after which the teacher will start to do things such as switching from one kata to another in the middle of the exercise, while attacking with great speed and power. The intensity of this is increased and increased until the student is being forced to defend himself against real attacks that may or may not take the form he expects from the kata. Historically, after this stage the student would move on to fighting matches with other schools, but these were not "sparring" as bokken were used at full force and injuries were expected. Such matches stopped happening in the 1960s when the Japanese government strengthened its dueling laws, but there are still kenjutsu instructors alive now who fought such duels, for instance Seki Humitake of the Kashima Shinryu. So, while kata were considered the basis of training, real combat was the goal and purpose of training.

[G.MatthewWebb]

Chris Thompson wrote:
"Such matches stopped happening in the 1960s when the Japanese government strengthened its dueling laws, but there are still kenjutsu instructors alive now who fought such duels, for instance Seki Humitake of the Kashima Shinryu."

I have this book, Legacy of the Sword, which you have quoted and I'll need to review it to doublecheck your assertions, but my memory is that Seki fought unarmed duels and they were against karate practitioners and the like. I don't remember that he fought with the sword or fought other koryu practitioners. I don't have much respect for the skill level of many karate practitioners so I was not impressed that he had bested a karate expert. Sorry to offend any karate practitioners out there, but that's my opinion. If I have misremembered this book, would someone please quote me the passage. And Chris, if you can quote any reputable sources that document sword fights with sharp swords in Japan in the 60's, I and others, I think, would be interested. In Legacy of the Sword, there IS a story about Seki's teacher fighting and killing some assailants when he was young, possibly in the 1920's. However, no mention of edge on edge blocking in that account if I remember correctly!


Matthew Webb
Oklahoma City, OK
USA

[Chris Thompson]

>my memory is that Seki fought unarmed duels and they were against karate practitioners and the like>

The book is not actually very clear on this point. It says that taryu-jiai (duels of skill) were fought by both Kunii Zenya and his student Seki Humitake. I believe it says that Kunii Zenya fought taryu-jiai both unarmed and with the bokken (not sharp swords) and that he also slew three opponents in a fight with sharps around 1910. It then goes on to say that Seki Humitake fought a number of taryu-jiai, but it doesn't say whether they were all unarmed or whether some were with bokken. It lists a few of his specific taryu-jiai, and the ones it lists are unarmed.
I never said the Kashima Shinryu parried with the edge, and I don't know one way or the other whether they do or not. I said the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu parries with the edge. Considering that this was the style of the Tokugawa shoguns and was used successfully in a great many battles and duels, I would think that was sufficient to show that edge parries were and are an excepted practice in some Ryu.
As for the quote from a member of the Daito Ryu, opinions are divided on whether the Daito Ryu is truly a classical style- it claims ancient origins, but is documented only to the late 19th century if I recall correctly.