Plough vs Middle Guard

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Hey all.

I recently bought John Clement's "Medieval Swordsmanship:
Illustrated Methods and Techniques" and in this book I read about a "middle guard."

First, I was wondering which text did John get this from.

Secondly, I really like this guard better than the plough. I've always found that the plough forces me to turn my shoulders, thus turning my feet when I step while the middle guard "squares" me up better. That brings me to the next question.

What are the advantages and disadvantages of the plough versus the "middle" guard?

I feel the middle guard keeps the point of your sword out a little farther, keeping the opponent back a bit more than the plough and it keeps me square at the opponent and is very well balanced. I personally don't like having to choose a right or left plough while I'm moving and stepping. This also lead me to thing of the possibility that the plough is not so much a guard as a position caught in mid motion like the Longen Ort (which isn't a guard but a position to show mid swing as I was told and understood it.)

Love to hear your opinions on this! Thanks!

[Shane Smith]

I believe that the middleguard as seen in Medieval Swordsmanship has fallen out of favor,even with John himself.

I favor the phlug variation as it simultaneously covers a line and offers a thrusting threat with the hilt on one hip. The hilt in the middle doesn't cover as well in my opinion. This interpretation is also consistant with Ringecks "Absetzen".

[Matt_Bruskotter]

If it has fallen out of favor. why? Is there some major flaw in it that I don't see or does the plugh work that much better?

I also feel that, if I'm in the right plugh, that my left is awful exposed. Though a simple step and switch to the left plugh will cover this.

I agree with the thrusting threat of the plugh. My thrusts are a little weak from the middle guard.

I also realize that the plugh is a little decieving to the opponent when it comes to range. Which is another reason why I liked the middle guard as a beginner because my own range is obvious in a middle guard.

I always wondered why I never saw the middle guard in any sparring videos...

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Matt, as I recall you used that guard with me a few times when we sparred. My impression was that you had no time to launch an effective/strong attack from this postion against me.

I remember thinking about this guard when we were sparring and afterwards saying to myself, (I don't think I will ever use that one) kind of response. It was also seemed very predictable- and I think this guard primarily comes from the Italian school- Aaron

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Oh yeah, I remember that schooling. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll have to try sparring more, but I remember feeling slow. I attributed slowness and predictablility to my lack of skill not the stance. And those paddeds where kind of heavy, though that may be due to me being weak with a sword. I feel I do better with wasters in the middle guard. I'll give the plugh another couple of shots.

Does anyone else use the middle guard? If I'm the only one I'm going to be a little embarassed I've used it for so long. I guess I feel there has got to be a major problem with it if no one uses it at all.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

well, It exists in the historical context so it must have some use. As I think more about it I remember your form being the problem, you seemed to keep your wrists very close to your body, which is why you were so predictable, and it seemed like a very asian-esque stlye you were adopting. Try and keep your wrists away from your waist line a little more and out in front of you. This will give you better coverage, and don't worry I see plenty of other RMA's using that guard you are not the only one. You are very quick and will be quite deadly with some more expirence, Keep at it man! Later, Aaron

[Jay Vail]

The middle guard is poste breve from Fiore. We don't advocate its use much in ARMA these days because its central placement does not cut off the lines of any cuts as pflug does.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

On Slow VS Fast and deadly:

I belive that slowness and fastness is all but relative. A deadly stroke is nothing more but a sharp steel on the right place in the right time - I learned this from Two-Handed renaissance swords. I guess a master at arms just knows to do everything in the right time - you may as well fight relatively slowly. If you use timing, weightpoints, distance control and continue to hammer blows at your enemy, you may win, even i you are not trying to be the next jedi in some star wars film.
We are just beginning to unbderstand all the complex strikes of doebringer, but they are just awesome. Speed itself seems not to play a vital role in them, but good timing does.
So I guess using middle guard or pflug is just a question of personal taste. I like both of them, where Pflug offers more technics for attack and protection, but on the controversary, Pflug is mor defensive. For a weaker or inexperienced fighter, maybe middle guard is a general good choice.

Szabolcs

[Matt_Bruskotter]

Oh, and it'd help if I'd do the middle guard right. Aaron, you where right. I was holding the middle guard almost on my hip in the middle. The groin basically. After holding it in front of myself, almost above the knee, my strikes feel quite a bit faster. I can't believe I never noticed that. Thanks for the tip!

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Cool man, no sweat! Sorry I didn't say anything sooner that's my bad- Aaron

[JeffGentry]

Hey Aaron

I've watched him on more occasion's than you and never even noticed.

Jeff