The importance of training with non fencers

[Shane Smith]

George Silver in his" Paradoxes of Defence", circa 1599, tells us that no man may be judged a perfectly good master of defence until he can stand unharmed after bouting in turn against three masters of defence, three valiant yet untrained men and three determined men half-drunk. This seems to me a pretty darn insightful test and one that is valid in the extreme(especially in period) if not practical for legal and other reasons.

Still we can learn much from the unskilled yet aggressive guys that show up to train with us all from time to time. These guys embody the buffel that the source texts warn us against as well as instruct us in overcoming by superior skill of art. These kinds of men with their generally good athleticism and their audacity make for excellent training tools and gut-check devices on occasion. Quite simply, throwing a big commited zorn at an unskilled yet valiant man will often result in a double hit as he will launch when you do with the one thought of landing his blow as well. This is not so likely against another skilled fencer who will often seek to bind to save his skin and steal the initiative. He knows what to do and is therefore safer to engage with audacity. A non-fencer will do the most unexpected and irrational things and therefore they must be faced much more cautiously in some cases. You must move them from their place of protection either by coming in under your own surest cover or defend their buffalo strike with a displacement or a void with counter. You simply have no idea what he may do beyond the limits any mans skeletal/muscular structure place on his actions. That is a true test of nerve and skill.

Non skilled yet aggressive fighters are excellent tests of skill in my opinion along with the normal fare of skilled opposition and my own experiences leads me to side with Master Silver 100 percent. What are you guys' experiences and thoughts in this regard?

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Shane:

You're quote from Silver is dead on the money, IMHO. I have had some of the best sparring experiences of my life from unskilled aggressive people. My favorite form of workout is a 5 mile speedwalk walking at at least 5 mph. Halfway through the walk there is a forested area. I carry a 4' staff with me on these walks and when I reach this point, I do some "bag" work against the tree using the staff for at least 15 minutes. Of course I get the stares and questions of passerbyes on the hike-and-bike trail. Once in a blue moon, someone asks what I am doing, the conversation invariably leads to ARMA and I invite the person for some sparring. It is a good way to meet unskilled, aggressive fighters. As of yet, no one has ever returned to join ARMA.

Being a lawyer, however, you know that I cannot engage, nor advise anyone to engage, a bouting match against a drunk or someone high on something. The legal ramifications cause my mind to melt....danger Will Robinson...danger....warning!!!

Although, as I have posted earlier, at Renn faires, it is bloody well tempting...... <img src="/forum/images/icons/smirk.gif" alt="" />


-----------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside

[JeanryChandler]

I personally agree 100%. You have no doubt seen my posts on this subject. I think it helps you develop as a well rounded fencer to engage in this type of activity, against both untrained people and people trained in other disiciplines. Of course by this I mean your type A physical and / or mental candidates, people who are naturally aggressive and confident. I totally agree with you as to the potential risk of double kills as well, and it's something really valuable to learn to deal with in particular. Especially if even a tiny part of the reason you train is for self defense..

As for drunks, one thing we noticed a long, long time ago before we did real WMA and when we had almost no safety guidelines, was that people tended to get hurt a lot when stick fighting drunk. It was one of our first rules, no drunken people. Another perhaps odd one was no fighting at twilight. We did do some events at night, but for some reason at twilight people actually seemed to have more trouble seeing blows aimed at them and got hurt too.

Jeanry

[Jaron Bernstein]

Alcohol was once an integral part of the fighting art. Recall the daily rum ration? Not that I think it is a good idea today. I work on a college campus and have seen no end of dangerous stupidity from that guy who is 10' tall (in his own mind, after 30 beers).

[JeffGentry]

Hey Folk's

The term ten feet tall and bullet proof come's to mind, i agree it would be good training against a someone drunk, alcohol help's remove the inhabition and they tend to not feel as much pain, so they just keep coming, three master's, well the closest we have is John, Stew, Jake, Shane, I can't see fighting any of those three and not being harmed at this point in time, might be a good test though for a provost prize playing.

Jeff

[Jaron Bernstein]

Ah, but that is the danger of beer. After enough alcohol, someone might just be tempted to try that particular prize playing with some self confidence....before the massacre begins. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have fought drunks before (not with swords!) and find that what they have in ferocity, they lack in coordination.

[ksiajdn]

Agreed.

One thing I noticed from MY experiences is that when facing someone unskilled, a very agressive stance will probably help your swordplay. Most unskilled people can't deflect a thrust properly.

[Gene Tausk]

"have fought drunks before (not with swords!) and find that what they have in ferocity, they lack in coordination."


Let me guess....Ohio State - Michigan?

No matter who wins, cars get turned over and set on fire on High Street.

GO BUCKEYES!!!!

<img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />


---------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - ARMA Southside Houston

[Shane Smith]

I've likewise noticed that many people have a harder time with thrusts than cuts. They are certainly easier to set aside, but a good thrust right up the nose from phlug is hard to spot if you allow the distance to be broken against you. How many of us haven't been stood back on our heels by a committed thrust that we only saw when we noted that the other guys point seemed to be widening somehow... WHACK!!! <img src="/forum/images/icons/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Ah yes, that thrust is well-known to me as well....from the wrong end, It really is amazing how much force is developed, the action is or can be so small at the arms-but when you add three feet of lever behind that motion- yikes, whiet hot pain all the way down the spine-hurts just thinking about it- Aaron

[Jaron Bernstein]

Yeah, our OSU fans can be kind of rambunctious. Not up to European soccer hooligan standards, but they do like their magical cups of "this beverage makes me 10 feet tall and invincible" beer.

Regard the thrust, I know what ye mean. 2 weeks ago Keith snapped my head back with one to the head that would have looked like one of those capo ferro skewering pictures had they been unarmored sharps instead of paddeds.

[Justin Blackford]

Actually, I have recently seen just how well an untrained non-fencer can do against one who practices regularly.
One of my friends with whom I study the Art has a 14 year old brother named Travis who would often times watch my study group during our drilling and freeplay sessions.
At first he was apprehensive as to how effective swordsmanship could be from a study group filled with young men who were only three or four years older than him, but he still would watch us from his front porch, though he never asked to take part in the action.
Then, one evening our group was training, and we were entering our freeplay rounds. My friend called out to his brother and asked him to fight, just to see if all his watching would pay off in a fight.
He came down from the porch, picked up a padded waster, and he and his brother entered zufechten in their guards. Surprisingly, although Travis had never actually paid attention to the names that we referred to the guards and the strikes, he seemed to have developed an understanding from his quiet watching at a distance. He immediately assumed the guard of Pflug and his brother the Schranckhut.
The fight involved a lot of krumphaus, oberhaus, and unterhaus, but Travis defended himself quite well and managed to wechsel and thrust his brother when stuck in a hard bind. The next two rounds, his brother defeated him, but not without a hard fight. And in real life, only the first fight would have counted anyway, since you would only get the one chance to do it right.
I was impressed at how a non-fencer who only watched quietly had performed against one who trains on a regular basis. Travis' explanation was, "Hey, I've been defending myself against my big brother my whole life!" HAHA! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Justin