Concerning proper bucklers

[Travis Beamon]

In recent discussion with friends we have been talking about bucklers and what exactly is historically accurate, and where to find the best representation of such.

I have seen a very wide spectrum of bucklers with constructions of leather, wooden with steel umbo, and also all steel. I am very interested to see what is most accurate and common out of all of these, and also what dimensions might be seen historically.

Another of the biggest questions that has plagued us is the quest for a historically sound weight for a buckler. I do not know exactly what one would weigh, which is why I have come here in my search; but I have seen the spectrum range from 2-6 pounts. In my limited use of sword and buckler, I would assume anything over 3 pounds to be too heavy, especially in the extreme later case.

Any insight and knowledge will be greatly appreciated and links of good places to obtain a good buckler for use in freeplay and just all around work with I.33.

Thanks,
-Travis Beamon
ARMA DFW

[Brian Hunt]

I am going to make a stab at this. AFAIK,historically bucklers were made of many materials. Some were a steel frame with a hardened leather covering, some were steel or iron, and I believe some were a wood steel composite. Some were even made as faces with tongues and such, as shown in Paulus Kal. In one of Talhoffer's manuals, his bucklers are a lopsided octegon with lots of points, Mair named his buckler a "rundellen", which I believe roughly translates as a round-dagger, and is very pointed like the ones shown in Jorg Wilhalm, and some of Talhoffer's other buckler images. The I.33 shows a buckler that is domed in the center, and sometimes it has a short point illustrated, and sometimes it doesn't. Marrazo's buckler is illustrated as a domed center without a spike or point.

It is my opinion that it is unsafe to practice with a pointed buckler. These things are wonderfull brass kuckles, and if you add a point, they essentially become a large punch dagger.

Most bucklers come in a variety of sizes, from 6 inches all the way up to 16 inches in diameter. I prefer a buckler that is 12 inches in Diameter.

If you make one out of 1/2 plywood with a 16 gage umbo, you will have a nicely weighted buckler, not too heavy, not too light. I do not have any stats on period weights for a buckler, so I cannot speak about that.

For general practice and sparring, I use a 1/4 thick ABS plastic buckler that I make. It works well against wasters, steel blunts, and padded weapons.

For authenticity, I would go with a 16 gage steel buckler with a rolled edge. I have a 14 gage one that I hammered out, and it is a little on the heavy side for some of the techniques where you change from one side to the other to protect your sword hand. I would also only use a steel sword against a steel buckler, it could be devestating to a waster or a padded weapon.

A wooden buckler would also be a good general all around buckler against blunts, wasters, and padded weapons.

There are leather bucklers out there, but I have yet to use one that I trusted my knuckles to. The couple I have used, the umbo or domed section had a tendency to collapse under a solid impact and allow the force to travel to your knuckles. Others may have leather bucklers that don't do this, but I haven't personally held one. However, I have only seen about 4 leather bucklers so my opinion may be skewed.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

P.S. I primarily study the I.33, and Mair's rapier and buckler, with a little Lichtenauer thrown in for fun. However, there is a large similarity between the principals found in the I.33 and several of Talhoffer's buckler plates.

[Mike Chidester]

A related question: all of the bucklers I have seen in ARMA, including those shown in the manuals, are hand-held. Is there historical precedence for the bucklers that are strapped onto the forearm that can be seen at times in media and role-playing games?

[Rod-Thornton]

I don't know if this helps you out at all, but I just finished reading one of JC's articles with lot's of descriptives on the buckler... Here at: http://www.thearma.org/essays/SwordandBuckler.htm


Mike, the primary difference between shield and buckler, as I understand it from John's article, is that the buckler is a HAND-HELD device, whilst the shield is a strapped on to the arm-device.
I learned of the wide variety in construction (and use) from ones intentionally "soft-wooded" at the perimeter edges (to momentarily bind an opponent's blade that chopped into it) to laminates of leather, wood, steel, etc.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Mike,

why would you strap a buckler to your forearm, when armour works to protect you, and is a better defense? AFAIK, this is the realms of fantasy, not history. The Buckler is a mobile defense that needs to switch positions quickly, if it is strapped to your arm, it limits the techniques and actions availible. One held in your hand is an active defensive weapon, whereas if you limit it's mobility by strapping it to your arm, it becomes a passive defense, rather like armour. One should remember that the buckler creates a defensive area similar to a cone, the closer to your body the buckler is held, the smaller that cone of defense becomes, the farther out, the larger the cone. If you want more details, be sure to ask Stewart about this.

Because sheilds are much larger, and cover more area, having one strapped to your arm doesn't create the same limitations because of how far out the edge of your sheild extends past your hand. The larger size allows them to also be an active defense rather than a passive one. Italian Targes, kite shields, and curved heater shields generally have an arm strap and a hand grip. AFAIK, a large number of sheilds were also used in conjuction with a shoulder strap to help support the weight of the shield. Not all shields are strapped to the arm. If you look at Viking and early Anglo-Saxon shields, you will see that they are round, and are held in the center by one hand. There can be a lot of similarities between the use of a center held shield and a buckler. However, the buckler is faster and more mobile due to size and weight differences, but the shield covers a much larger area. According to the book "The Anglo-Saxon Shield", this shield came in three sizes small [about 1 to 1.5 feet], medium [about 1.5 to a little over 2 feet], and large [about 2ft 4in to 3ft]. IMO, both round shields and bucklers should have a square or oval handle to facilitate correct alignment.

And of course this doesn't even begin to get into German Dualling shields. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Zach Palfreyman]

Yes the buckler was sometimes worn on the wrist. But it was most always used held in fist. You ask slightly the wrong question, because it doesn't matter so much if it was or was not used, but why to use it that way. People have made guns with knife and sword blades attached, and knifes and swords with built in guns. There are helmets that were turned around and used as pots to cook food, etc. I imagine some people even used their bucklers as plates or maybe even a soup bowl. So what you really want to know is what are the merits and flaws of wearing it on your wrist, but you'd probably have to just try it out if you were really interested. But the fact that it was designed to be used on the fist and that's how it was mostly used, that should tell you it was generally the best way to use it. It should probably be enough just to say that it was designed to be used with the fist.

[Jake_Norwood]

Yes the buckler was sometimes worn on the wrist.

What is your source for this? I have never seen historical evidence that I can recall.

Jake

[Zach Palfreyman]

I think you missed the point. I could pull off my shield and throw it at you like a frizbie... under the right circumstances, it might even pay off. But that is not how it was intented to be used and usually not the best way to use it. I could throw my sword at you like a spear, again that is not what they were made for or generally speaking the best way to use them. The point is that you can find historical precedent for basically anything, even being a dumbass. So it doesn't matter if anyone tied their buckler to their wrist, that was not what they were designed for, nor was it how they were typically used. So I can use my helmet as a bowl if I wanted, and it might even be a good idea if I really need a bowl and don't have one. We could even go find some stuff about helmets being used as pots if we wanted, but unless we are teaching a medieval cooking class what's the point? I wasn't telling anyone to go strap a buckler to their wrist, I was telling them not to.

[Stacy Clifford]

I've always been kind of fascinated by the bucklers in this one plate from Gladiatoria:

[Jake_Norwood]

Zach,

What's with the attitude, man? I asked a fair scholarly question. It wasn't an attack.

Anything that you or I or John Clements or Sydney Anglo comes on here to say needs to have some proof to back it up. Opinion generally doesn't cut it, or at least needs to be backed up with a "why."

As for strapping a buckler to your wrist, I don't see that as even being possible *given the bucklers that I have seen or handled.* The handle is always an integral part of the build of the buckler--it would get in the way of the arm. I suppose it could be removed and straps put in its place, but then the buckler becomes armor--and poorly suited armor to the task, at that!

Stacy,

I guess that image brings up the inevitible question, "What is a buckler?" To me these are clearly small shields, not bucklers at all, on account of the way that they are worn and the fact that there are two contact points--both a handle and a forearm strap.

So where do we draw the line? I figured the one-handed buckler was a pretty standard definition, but perhaps I'm mistaken. Is there something that really defines a buckler in the historical sources?

Jake

[Gene Tausk]

Zach:

I agree with Jake. Lose the attitude. Jake asked a fair question when he asked you for your sources, which is a question you had better expect when frequenting this forum.



------------------&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;gene tausk
SFS
Study Group Leader - Houston ARMA Southside
Forum Moderator

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Stacy,

those are definetly shields and not bucklers. I can make out most of the top line, but this image is low enough resolution that the other words are too fuzzy to read. The verse starts off as "here mark is the fight with the messer and also with the ? shield . . . " I cannot make out the preceeding descriptive of what type of a shield they are classified as without a better image.

However, the preceeding image is a buckler image.


and while I can make out even less of the text in this image due to the resolution, it appears to have the word "puckler" in the text which should translate as buckler.

Another interesting thing to note about the image you posted, is that the man on the left is standing in a fairly standard open shield guard that is similar to those shown in many images from the middle ages, and some of the manuals on the Italian Targe.



My general assesment is that these are the equivelent of a small duelling shield, without being able to make out the written name for them, I would very loosly define them as a punch shield. This is of course subject to change with the emergence of a complete translation.

hope this helps.

Brian Hunt.

P.S. with better images, I should be able to give a transcription and a translation for both of these images.

[Stacy Clifford]

Well, I guess that's the whole point really. Is the difference between a shield and a buckler just in the size, the type of grip, or both? I can see why you would call those shields, I just tend to associate larger objects with that word by nature. As usual, the way it's used is probably the most important thing.

[Brian Hunt]

Hi Stacy,

just to clarify and make sure there is no misunterstanding (especially on my part <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), I am not just calling or naming them a shield, the text specificly calls them a "schilt" or shield.

just trying to avoid confusion.

Brian Hunt
GFS.

[Jon Pellett]

There is a translation of the Gladiatoria shield plates into modern French over at Escrime Ancienne, if that's any help. Apparently the arm shield is a "Hungarian shield". According to EA, the gist of the text on both plates is Here is a position you can do the all the techniques from in play or in earnest.

Cheers