Concerning proper bucklers

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jake

This call's to mind or conversation about linguistic's and how most technique name's tell you how/what they are or how they are used, this buckler, shield thing's seem's to be somewhat the same in the fact that the name will indicate how it is used.

Jeff

[Jared L. Cass]

Back to the construction of training bucklers......

I have to agree with what's been said about the leather ones. I've experimented here with some hardened ones that are damn near 1/2" thick. While ok, they are know where near as nice as steel, wood or plastic ones.

The ones I've made that impress me the most though are by far ones made of rawhide. Last summer Aaron Pynberg and Chris Thies came over to do a half day of training. I had slapped together various buckles but the two made of just a single thickness (pretty thick for rawhide...about 1/8" thick) were amazing performers IMO. Not only were they made of a period accurate materal (IMO) but I have no doubts that if a buckler were made of several layers of rawhide, it would easly defend against sharp steel while remaining extremely light and hard enoufgh to do some damage in there own right.

Jared L Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes, those rawhide bucklers were incredible. They were strong, light. I agree they probably would stand up to steel.

[JeffGentry]

Hey Guy's

I agree raw hide is tough, the only problem is when the raw hide get's wet you are going to be in trouble because it would then get soft and lose it's shape, you would have to do something to protect it, i think the american indian's used a raw hide shield dont know hoiw they protected them though.

Jeff

[Shane Smith]

I saw what appeared to be a leather and open steel framework buckler at the Royal Armouries at Leeds last year.

[Jared L. Cass]

Actually the worry of rawhide becoming wet and useless is not as true as it may seem. Before I could mould the experimental ones into shape I literally had to let them soak compleatly submurged overnight. After about four hours the rawhide was still very stiff and non-pliant.

"i think the american indian's used a raw hide shield dont know hoiw they protected them though."

From what I know the number one waterproofer for rawhide items (and leather ones) in the 18th/19th century's was simple spar-varnish. Now varnish/shellack/ other resin mixtures had been in use for along time befor then, so it wouldn't be a far stretch to assume that some like coating was used in Europe durring our time period interest.

Jared L. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[JeffGentry]

Hey Jared

Yea i know what you mean about soaking raw hide to work it i was just thinking that against a sharp sword when it get's wet it would not be as effective, i can see it being a good buckler though if it has a water resistant coating and is taken care of.

Jeff

[Randall Pleasant]

Jared L. Cass wrote:
"I think the american indian's used a raw hide shield dont know hoiw they protected them though."

During the early and mid 1700s the Spanish soldiers in Texas used raw hide shields as protection against Native American weapons. If I remember right historical documents say that 12 layers of hide were used.

[Jared L. Cass]

Right on Ran. For those interested in seeing some of these shields here's some links below.

http://historywired.si.edu/objectvoted.cfm?ID=176

http://historywired.si.edu/object.cfm?ID=178

In the book "Companion to Medieval Arms and Armor" Edited by David Nicolle. There is some really great and tantalizing information concerning the manufacture of the second shield link...the "adarga".

Jared l. Cass, ARMA Associate, Wisconsin

[Jeffrey Hull]

Randall,

Could we assume that 12 layers of rawhide would roughly amount to like the thickness of solid slab of 12-ounce leather? If so, I guess that would be about the thickness of saddle-leather (correct me if wrong). Of course, rawhide and tanned leather are different, so I am not trying to equate. Just trying to picture it.

[ChrisThies]

In the book "Companion to Medieval Arms and Armor" Edited by David Nicolle. There is some really great and tantalizing information concerning the manufacture of the second shield link...the "adarga".

Hello Jared,
I remember that when you brought out those rawhide bucklers I was a bit skeptical at first, but you quickly made a believer out of me as to their usefulness! They were extremely functional - and they also looked cool the way you had molded them.

In David Nicolle's "Medieval Warfare Source Book: Christian Europe and its Neighbors" (which is a 1996 Volume 2 to his 1995 "Medieval Warfare Source Book Volume 1: Warfare in Western Christendom) there are a few mentions of both large and small leather shields. He says the adarga de lante was a large leather shield used to a limited degree in Christian Spain, it was based upon the Berber lamt which, according to a 12th century Egyptian source, was ten hand spans across and three cubits long, made of several layers of hide glued together, capable of protecting both rider and horse (pages 163, 290 & 299).

[Brian Hunt]

For those that are interested,

the small pointed shields from the Gladitoria are apparently hungarian shields. Jon Pellett gave me a heads up on this.

here is a link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_shield

Laters.

Brian Hunt

GFS