Historical fencing in the world

[Jirka Salamoun]

A discusion about historical fencing, research and sytems of HF in the world. Your comments, impressions and findings.

P.S: Do you know Ing. Petr Koza from Magisterium ( HF org. in Czech Republic) ?? <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Allen Johnson]

That is an extremley broad topic. Perhaps focus on a specific weapon type or historical master?

(dont know Petr Koza)

[Jirka Salamoun]

I wanted only in general, but if u want..
Okay, what about oneandhlafhaners tech. HF systems??

[Jirka Salamoun]

oneandhalfhanders, sorry. (long swords)

[Risto Rautiainen]

Yep, I know Petr Koza through a exchange studend (Vladislav Kurz, lives in Brno, say hi if you know him). Vladislav taught us what he knew from someone who had studied under Koza. The only problem at that time (~2002) was that what he taught us was theatrical longsword fighting that was supposedly of the german tradition (a lot of edge to edge bashing). The techniques would have been plausible if we had been using a saber, but they surely weren't good for longsword. The footwork was almost there, but not quite. I'd like to know what you're doing now there in Czech, as there's a really strong re-enactment community and great potenial for good WMA schools.

[Shane Smith]

You're not likely to get much of a response because of the broadly worded topic.There is not enough space for us all to begin to tell all we each know about even one specialized form of fencing.It's not that we know so much, but that the space and time available to us all is relatively limited. There is no shortage of good info in the articles and essays section of this website.Best regards.

[Jirka Salamoun]

Shane Smith: I was talking about todays HF systems (researched), not in the history (because in history it was called fencing without the word historical).

[Jirka Salamoun]

Risto Rautiainen: What we are doing in Czech rep.? Well, i say something about the HF scene here. In Czech repubilc and Slovakia (past Czechoslovakia) Are manny historical fencers divided in to several ,,groups of historical fencing" (not only). Since the birth of modern HF in 1956, Czechoslovakia, HF separated in to 2 ways of practicing it: the combatal and the scenical (theactrical). The combatal kind of HF is teached as a MA. And the scenical form is taught as near as possiblle to the combatal, but for purposse to offer a good show for people who know nothing about fencing (on several castle, town celebrations). So it is possible that you will see there manny techniques that wouldent mutch work in reality. Nearly (99%) all groups of HF practise the scenical form and are performing shows. But that doesent mean that a HF group that is practising the scenical way dont practise the combatal, but there are mutch less of dem dooing so. You can find a group of HF nearly everywhere (so it can be called a strong HF comunity here <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) in Bohemia (and Moravia), from poor quality HFgroops to excelent ones. Not potential, but good WMA schools are allredy there (WMA schools - the option to groups of HF. If u want to learn HF in Cz. rep.) . Im teached on a HF fencing school (the MA way of HF) in Brno - cyranoclub fencing school. No, i dont know Vladislav Kurz, it is impossible to know all HF fencers even in Brno(350,000 inhabitans town),because there are so manny. It is even impposible to know all good HF fencers who practice long time and take training serious.
I hope that he has not made us (czechs) a bad reputation in the HF world, who knows how long he was studiing WMA, how often he parctices (if he does) ahd who teached him.

P.S: My english is not so good: What does mean ,,edge to edge bashing"?

[s_taillebois]

"edge to edge bashing" means to use the cutting edge of the sword to parry/block an opponents blow. And the opponent is likely doing the same thing to parry blows directed towards him or her.
In American theatre, and movies, they tend to do that a lot as makes a ringing sound when the edges meet....more theatrical an effect it seems.
No doubt it happened a few times historically, simply because under andrenaline and stress, mistakes tend to happen.

[Risto Rautiainen]

Okay, sorry Jirka, I forgot how big Brno actually was. Well I just found the webpages of the group that Vladislav belongs to (http://www.rottalove.cz/) and from watching the video on their site it seems that they have moved on from where they were at 2002. It's actually Vladislav on the video, the guy in the blue outfit. He's a great guy, and those hours were surely not spent wrong as he taught us some very useful things. But it's very good to know that there is actual progress happening there. As the practitioners of HF in Czech are pretty much separated from the WMA community, it surely would be nice to know if you have come to the same interpretations as other researchers have. You can make a good comparison by reading some of the www.chivalrybookshelf.com stuff.

[Jirka Salamoun]

Yeah, you right. The czech HF community is pretty mutch sepparated from the WMA community in the world. Thats because modern HF started here (or separately), the HF comunity is strong here plus language problems - so nobody is interested what happens outside czech rep. in HF. Mostly they dont even know that something is happening. NOBODY here knows ARMA and i self found it only lucky why serching on the internet for digital fechtbuch pistures....
What concerns the iterpretations of HF, im likely not the one who should compare it because im studiing WMA only for two years. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Risto Rautiainen]

As you have great potential and I would say huge resources compared to the rest of the world in the form of vast masses of people doing this stuff, I think it would be beneficial for all of us if we could do some work together. Who knows what great things you have found. Therefore it would be good if even some of you would be the messenger between us. I mean, there are some groups in Germany that interact a lot with the rest of the worlds' WMA community and Germany isn't that far away from you. What are the manuals you base your HF on and what weapons do you study?

[Matt Easton]

>>"edge to edge bashing" means to use the cutting edge of the sword to parry/block an opponents blow. And the opponent is likely doing the same thing to parry blows directed towards him or her.
In American theatre, and movies, they tend to do that a lot as makes a ringing sound when the edges meet....more theatrical an effect it seems.
No doubt it happened a few times historically, simply because under andrenaline and stress, mistakes tend to happen.<<

Ok, this is an old and battered subject, but parrying with the edge is actually historical and can be found explicitly described in sources back to the Bolognese tradition in Manciolino and Marozzo.
That is not to say that all systems parried with the edge or even parried at all, but certainly edge-parrying was normal by the 18thC everywhere in Europe and it can certainly be found in earlier sources. Fiore parries (coverta), whether you use the edge or the flat is up to you IMO, but the cross-guard is shown angled outwards in relation to the opponent's blade.

Anyway, back to topic:
Running a reasonably sized group in London we have had quite a few members come and go who originated from various types of group in the Czech Rep. and Slovakia. It is quite clear, to us anyway, that as has been described above, there is a spectrum of 'WMA' in the former Czechoslovakia. Many of the groups are clearly just reenactors, who know of the sources but don't study them, while others are theatrical stage combat people, who again know of the sources but don't study them. Some of them seem to be from a classical fencing tradition (old Maestro qualifications in foil, epee, sabre), and are now teaching medieval/renaissance weapons in their own system, with reference only to the sources. There really do seem to be a large number of groups in what was Czechoslovakia who make reference to the sources, but what I have found so far is a lack of people actually *studying* the original sources - with the exception maybe of the rapier sources. I have encountered a lot of Czech/Slovaks who seem to think they know what a source teaches because they have looked at the pictures, but then I discover that they have not actually translated or read the words, and so they don't really understand.
Please don't take this as an attack - as a member of HEMAC, a loose coalition of European WMA groups, including some ARMA groups, I *want* to find serious WMA groups in Czech Rep/Slovakia, but so far I have not found any really serious ones (who study the sources). Every year we (HEMAC - www.hemac.org) run a big event in Dijon in France which has WMA people from all over Europe come, and we'd be very happy to invite serious WMA from the Czech Rep or Slovakia - if you know of such people or groups, please email me at schola-gladiatoria@hotmail.co.uk and I will do my best to make sure that you are welcomed at our events.

Matt

[s_taillebois]

Quite true M. Easton, tried to keep it short as the topic has worn out. Edge parries, also not unknown with 19th century sources, didn't seem to vex the mounted units much. Gods know it matters not much with wasters. To some degree its a style thing, our little equivalent to some of the affectations of the foil contingent.
And alas, so much arma type activity in the US East, and Europe..not as much here in the hinterlands nee' reservation.

[Jirka Salamoun]

Risto Rautiainen: Our f.master bases on Marozzo and im studiing a singlehanded sword [just jet].