Meisterhau for midgets - Zwerchau interpretation.

[joelthompson1]

Shane writes "To me, "all downward strikes made from above" certainly includes zornhau, the most likely strike from above. it's also obvious from the text that you are zwerching in response to his oberhau." Agreed.
I'm not arguing against the zwerchau being correct against a zorn generated from "above", meaning overhead. I'm saying that it's not the same when generated from the right shoulder. If the zwerch breaks the oberhau and the zorn breaks the zorn, there is to me, obviously a difference in zornhaus thrown from two different guards. The one generated "from above" gets the zwerch. The one generated from the right shoulder gets the zorn. In this case, the zwerch may not work as well. Especially if you have a height disadvantage. Or when the zorn is generated first. When you guys were working out, did you generate the zorn from the shoulder, and who intitiated the first strike? My feeling and interpretation is that the zwerch against a zorn generated from the shoulder is not a true meisterhau and may not work The true meisterhau thrown agaist a zorn from vom tag will work. Likewise a zwerch generated as a parry against any zorn that was thrown first is not a true meisterhau. It's a simple parry. In both cases, they are merely cuts that taken from the meisterhau list and used differently.
Reverse roles in your mind for a moment. The guy throwing the zorn is doing so, why? What guard is he facing? Were you getting ready to throw your zwerch from vom tag or from the zornhut? If you are the other guy, why would you throw a zorn at a guy in vom tag? Wouldn't YOU throw a zwerch instead? Assuming you intended it to be a meisterhau? My real thing here is what differentiates a meisterhau from a simple cut? My interpretation is that a true meisterhau must meet certain criteria to qualify, hence not all zwerchaus are master cuts, for example. So, to stay on topic, I am wondering if the alledged height disadvantage is enhanced by a particular interpretation of what constitutes a true meisterhau. I don't think height would be a hindrence if
a true meaisterhau (my interpetation) is executed correctly. In this case, a zwerchau generated indes against a zornhau generated from vomtag.

Joel

[Shane Smith]

Ringeck says of Vom Tag ;

"The fourth guard: vom Tag ("From the Roof")Stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword at the side of your right shoulder or above your head with your arms extended. "

And of the Zornhau;

"The Strike of Wrath and the Winding

Note: When your adversary strikes at you from his right side with a strike from above (Oberhau), then hit with a strike of wrath from your right shoulder against it. Strike with your true edge and in your strong."


So here we are told that above the head or at the right shoulder is acceptable for vomtag and that launching a zorn from the right shoulder is a recommended action. There are also many more mentions in Ringeck of a diagonal cut being thrown from the right shoulder. We must conclude that a zornhau can come from the right shoulder where it can be broken by zwerch. If you contend that only a zornhau used as a mastercut against another cut is a zornhau, then I see your point although I would stand behind my core premise. I do concede that the "when is a zorn a zorn" point is a valid and thought provoking one however.

[joelthompson1]

OK, I think we're getting to the meat of it here, Shane. You write, "We must conclude that a zornhau can come from the right shoulder where it can be broken by zwerch." It can certainly come from the right shoulder, but why would you conclude that it can be broken by a zwerch?
"Note: When your adversary strikes at you from his right side with a strike from above (Oberhau), then hit with a strike of wrath from your right shoulder against it. Strike with your true edge and in your strong." A strike of wrath (zornhau) is recommended against a strike coming from the right shoulder. Not a zwerchau. The conclusion must be that the zwerchau is reserved for the oberhau coming from the overhead vom tag. Even if that oberhau is a zornhau, it is slightly different than one generated from the right shoulder and can be broken indes by a zwerchau because the zwerchau is just slightly more realized when attacking a zornhau generated from overhead. That small movement to the right that must be made to create the diagonal angle gives a moment's more purchase to the arc of the zwerchau which does not occur against the cut generated from the shoulder. In zornhut, the diagonal angle is already assumed in the guard itself. Still assumng that the meisterhau is initiated first in all these scenarios. The zornhau can be generated from either overhead or from the shoulder. The shoulder is recommended. Why? More powerful? Harder to break? I think so. I think the conclusion is again that the zornhau generated from overhead is not the same as the strike of wrath. I think it is these minute differences that distinguish the use of the meisterhau, indeed this is why they are master cuts and not just recommended counters.
And I'm not saying that only a zornhau thrown against another zorn is a true zornhau. I'm saying that only a zorhau thrown against another zorn stepping quickly offline to the right is a meisterhau. Only a zwerchau launched against an overhead generated oberhau in like manner is a meisterhau. Only a krumphau thrown against an ochs in like manner is a meisterhau. All of these cuts can be used in other situations, but only in the suggested manner, stepping offline, etc. are they meisterhaus.

Joel

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Hmmmm...maybe, I would add that only throwing a strike, stepping offline and encountering your opponents actions correctly-are what make it a masterstrike....you can step offline all day but it's the ensuing action against an opponent which makes the strike so unique- all the sums add up to the whole not just one, or two parts, that's why practicing against someone who is moving is so very important. That sense of timing range and fuhlen this is what takes so long to master.-

[Randall Pleasant]

Shane

What needs to be considered is the blade on blade action that allows a Zwerchau and a Zornhau to function as a counter cut. In an idea situation, both cuts result in the strong of the blade impacting the flat of the adversary's blade at roughly a 90 degree angle at roughly the same time that the weak of the blade cuts the adversary. The countering action suffers as the angle between the blades increases or decreases away from 90 degrees. Thus, the Zwerchau does work against a high angle Zornhau such as a cut that would past from an adversary's left ear to his right knee. However, the Zwerch works less well against a low angle Zornhau such as a cut that would past from the top of an adversary's left shoulder to his right ribs. Against a low angle Zornhau the angle of your Zwerch can be changed so that the impact of the blades is closer to 90 degrees. Of course, as the angle of the Zwerch increases from horizontal at some point we regconize that we are cutting a Schiller rather than a Zwerch. When Liechtenaeur referred to the strike of a Buffalo, an unskilled fighter who rely only on their strength, I think he may well have been referring to a low angle Zorn thrown with power but poor form. Thus, Ringeck says that such an attack comes from the adversary's right side, not the adversary's right shoulder.

[JeffGentry]

Hey guy's

I'll throw in some more of my thought's here.

Note: When your adversary strikes at you from his right side with a strike from above (Oberhau), then hit with a strike of wrath from your right shoulder against it. Strike with your true edge and in your strong."

Shane you added the oberhau in there right?

A zornhau is a diagnol cut from the shoulder, not over the head, I have seen them say it is a "strike form above", from above what i think is the shoulder.

Goliath: Ther wrath strike counter's all high strike's with the point. Deploy it thus: when he come's to you in the pre fencing : if he strike's to you from his right side high to the head (i.e zwerch or zorn), then to this also strike from high on your right side(note in margin:in the weak on the sword)wrathfuly displacing with him on his sword,...

Doebringer: When someone strike's at you from above, strike a rage strike and draw the point at him, and you shall also step toward the right side....

Doebringer glosa:
Here note Lichtenauer strike's an upper strike from the shoulder, it is called the rage strike, when you are angry and raging, then no strike is as ready as this upper strike struck from the shoulder at the opponent. That is why Lichtenauer mean's that when someone strike's an upper strike against you, then you shall strike a rage strike at him...

Meyer: The wrath strike is a serious strike from you right shoulder, against your opponent's left ear...

Seem's clear to me a wrath strike is a specific strike from the right shoulder not over the head.

Meyer zwerch: You send yourself into the thwarter(zwerch) thus: assume the primary stance of the wrathful gaurd to the right, that is put your left foot forward and hold your sword over your right shoulder, as if you would strike a wrathful strike, and when your opponent strike's you from the roof or above, strike closely with your short edge, breaking against his strike from below...

Doebringer on zwerch: This is on the cross strike
The cross strike take's away what come's from the roof, do the cross strike with the strong and note your work....

Goliath: When you come to your opponent in the pre fencing, stand with your left foot forward and when you are in range spring aganst his left side with the right foot and strike an artful cross to his left side lower opening....


The zwerchhau seem's to be used against specific thing's of which cut's from over head are specified and over the shoulder is not.

I personaly think the Meisterhau are very specific strike's to be used against specific attack's and gaurd's when used in the right way at the right time they are fantastic and i don't think the height realy is that big a factor.


Jeff

[philippewillaume]

Shane, Randal, John, you are not fundamentally saying a different thing. I think you are looking for differentiator that is not here
I know I was not very clear in my two last attempts.

Ringeck tells us that the Zorhn breaks the Zwerch.
And he tells us that the Zwerch breaks strike from top to bottom. (Which is slightly different to an oberhaw stricto sensus)
Nonetheless what you are experiencing is consistent with the manual.
A Zhorn breaks the Zwerch, the manual tell us that it should happen
A Zwerch should be breaking a Zorhn , which is as Shane said nothing more than a strike from top to bottom. And that is what the manual said. The Zorhn being or not a top to bottom strike is not really relevant as in any case in his example of breaking the Zwerch with the zorhn ringeck start the zhorn in von tag and normally zwerch break von tag.

At the end regardless off, who is doing the strike, it is easier to make a good enough zornh than it is to make a good enough Zwerch.
In the previous post and in this one I am not commenting on people abilities but more on the comparative technical level required to perform each strike.
One you have the technical level required to make the zwerch happen, it is really as easy for you as to do a Zorhn.
Basically if your Zwerch is better than your opponent Zorhn you will win and if his Zorhn is better he will win.

What I was trying to get at was that making a Zwerch according to its technical specification is not a sufficient condition to make it successful and safe. You have to do it with the proper from for it to be efficient, so it is a necessary condition but it is not enough on its own.

So I agree with jeff conclussion. In fact I would say that the same situation applied for all the breaking of the guards, you mai not be put in difficulty by the Zhorn all the time but there is always a strike that will give the same not satisfactory/consitant result.

[joelthompson1]

Hmmm. I think Ran makes an interesting point about the right side zorn being a low trajectory one and not the same as one thrown from the shoulder. Actually, I think I've heard this interpretation before. The zorn is described as being from the side and not from the shoulder, although the shoulder is mentioned in other descriptions. An intentional difference? Could very well be.
But Jeff echoed my point here pretty well. He said, "I personaly think the Meisterhau are very specific strike's to be used against specific attack's and gaurd's when used in the right way at the right time they are fantastic and i don't think the height realy is that big a factor." My feeling exactly. And in my opinion, if these specific criteria are not met, then it is not a true meisterhau but merely a counter or parry. Therefore, the results expected from a meisterhau cannot be guaranteed if even small changes are made to the way the cuts are generated. Changing the footwork for example, or indeed, using a zwerch against a shoulder generated zorn instead of one generated from overhead.

Joel

[Shane Smith]

Shane you added the oberhau in there right?

No, it is part of the translation provided on the ARMA website. Also,thanks for the aditional text and input <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Shane Smith]

Therefore, the results expected from a meisterhau cannot be guaranteed if even small changes are made to the way the cuts are generated.

Interesting points. I would say that freeplay and adversarial fencing is chaotic. That being so, how masterful is a technique if it relies on our opponent to follow an exact line of attack(within reason of course)? How many of us launch a zorn(or simple downward diagonal) from above and still cross the right shoulder during the delivery? ALL of us because mechanics require that if the target is before you.Try it yourself. The only diagonal you can throw from directly above your head without crossing the shoulder is a cut that might take the right top corner of his head off unless he is to your left to begin with.I urge everyone to try it for themselves...you will move the hilt over your right on launching a zorn from the right and the path it follows will be similar to one launched directly from the right shoulder. That being said in light of earlier statements, that leaves us with a zwerch that works against only a fairly straight downward vertical? Not very Masterful, as in full-speed fencing, how do you know it will be a straight vertical and not a diagonal oberhau?I truly don't think the zwerch is that narrowly limited in application. Makes life less well defined doesn't it <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, I never claimed a pre-emptive cut from my right shoulder with a zorn is a mastercut as I saw suggested above.I agree the mastercut zorn is a specific cut to be used in specific circumstances. I consider common zorn to be any downward diagonal true-edged cut although others may disagree with that thought. I likewise consider the zwerch to be both a mastercut as well as a simple cut performed off a twitch at the bind.To me, both are zwerchs and yet only one is the true mastercut maybe. I think we're beginning to argue semantics, which while interesting,is not in keeping with the initial query.

[Shane Smith]

Hi Ran,

When Liechtenaeur referred to the strike of a Buffalo, an unskilled fighter who rely only on their strength, I think he may well have been referring to a low angle Zorn thrown with power but poor form. Thus, Ringeck says that such an attack comes from the adversary's right side, not the adversary's right shoulder.

Where on the right side is this cut being launched from in your estimation?Which guard? If it crosses the shoulderhigh, it can be broken as it leaves the shoulder as any other zorn can launched from Ochs or VomTag. If it is truly low of the shoulder and more horizontalish as it launches, it seems to me that we are now into the realm of counter schiller(squinter or shielhau) as called out by Ringeck;

"...The Squinter is a strike which primarily "breaks" the strikes and thrusts of those fencers, who rely only on their strength. Do it like this: If he attacks you from his right side, strike from your right side with the short edge and extended arms against the weak of his sword and hit him on the right shoulder. "

In this context, I believe that a zwerch is not ideal unless the shot literally does come from above, be it a zorn or vertical. I don't see us disagreeing <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[John_Clements]

I don't recall every having problems vs. taller guys with this, Rod. Raise your point, step appropriately, make sure you are striking at him and not his sword, and so that your strong clashes with his.

JC

[JeffGentry]

Hey Shane

I think it does have a little to do with the language, because the other day i heard one of our new guys say something about a schietelhau and he was talking about a vertical cut from over head straight down going into his gaurd of alber that is an oberhau not a schietelhau the schietelhau is a specific technique with a certain execution and use that is why they are differentiated as the five strike's and differ from an oberhau otherwise they would all just be oberhau's no need to differentiate.

I do think that the language of the hidden strike's does matter because of the nature of what we are dicussing which are specific strike's and they have specific name's and criteria.

I can throw a diagnol cut from over head vom tag without going over the right shoulder the target would be the top of my opponent's head on the left side and i would be reluctant to call that a zornhau, i generaly stand in over the shoulder vom tag, personel prefrence, and don't alway's throw zornhau's, i do throw diagonel cut's though from there, see the difference.

Jeff

[Shane Smith]

I can throw a diagnol cut from over head vom tag without going over the right shoulder the target would be the top of my opponent's head on the left side and i would be reluctant to call that a zornhau, i generaly stand in over the shoulder vom tag, personel prefrence, and don't alway's throw zornhau's, i do throw diagonel cut's though from there, see the difference.

Not possible from directly overhead unless your sword leaves your centerline on the right at launch and takes the same general line that a cut from your right shoulder would take. Therefore, it can be broken by a zwerch as it is an oberhau from the right over the shoulders high line( According to our own Jake Norwood, Meyer lists the zwerchau as the superior counter to all cuts from above). I could demonstrate this in a moment in person as the geometry involved is basic...you're simply not going to be able to hit an object sharing your centerline on it's left side without moving your sword to your own right of center to get it there but I guess you're right, the written word does have limitations.

As for seeing the difference, see my earlier post wherein I discuss thoroughly my thoughts on that issue.

[Shane Smith]

Shane, Randal, John, you are not fundamentally saying a different thing. I think you are looking for differentiator that is not here
I know I was not very clear in my two last attempts.

Ringeck tells us that the Zorhn breaks the Zwerch.
And he tells us that the Zwerch breaks strike from top to bottom. (Which is slightly different to an oberhaw stricto sensus)
Nonetheless what you are experiencing is consistent with the manual.
A Zhorn breaks the Zwerch, the manual tell us that it should happen
A Zwerch should be breaking a Zorhn , which is as Shane said nothing more than a strike from top to bottom. And that is what the manual said. The Zorhn being or not a top to bottom strike is not really relevant as in any case in his example of breaking the Zwerch with the zorhn ringeck start the zhorn in von tag and normally zwerch break von tag.

Good points Philippe. I think we often spend too much time arguing absolutes that are not only tough to nail down(even the source-texts themselves disagree on many points of doctrine), but sometimes arguably impossible to ascertain with available data from period.