Long time...Question on English guards

[BrandonHeslop]

Hi,

It's been a long time since I posted here. I'm that guy who complained about lots of stuff, (non ARMA related, though, I might add). LOL.

I kind of dropped out of WMA for a while, but it looks like I've caught the bug again. No regrets there.

Anyway, I have a question for this learned forum.

It's about guard names.

We all know the German names for the four main guards: Ochs, Alber, Vom Tag, and Pflug. We also know several names for the "secondary" guards.

But what about the English names? I have seen mention of the
Hawkesbill; and, to my understanding, most interpret this to mean Vom Tag. Personally, I rather think it is Ochs.
This would seem to make sense, since it is A: a high guard, and B: the point of the sword is directed at the opponent, rather like a hawk's beak, or "bill."

Perhaps "Hawke" is Vom Tag?

Next, there is the Dragon's Tayle, and I think this is quite obviously the "long lying tail" in Fiore's and other manuals. But this is not one of the four main German guards.

But, what of Pflug and Alber?

Also, if anyone has any insight on the English names for the different cuts, that would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
-B.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi,

I'm researching English Longsword / Greatsword right now, so I guess I could throw in my two cents on the subject.
After querriing the forum, and reading trhough a number of english sources, I have the following answer, which is, as always of course, only a personal interpretation.

ENGLISH CUTS
Hauke - The Hawk - Fendente.
Hauke Snatch - a quick slash with the tip, just like a whiplash
Hauke Quarter - Quartercut - Squalembrato
Halfe Hauky - ?
Round - The Roundcut - Tondo, or any circular Cut
Rolling Stroke - Molinello?
Rake - the Cut. (Schnitt in German)
Fune - Foyne - Thrust
Bakke Fune - High downward Thrust, back edge facing down
Fore Fune - opposite of the above, back edge facing up

GUARDS

Robecke - Roe Buck, Deer - Ochs?
Hawkesbill - Hawk's Beak - Hanging Point?

Please anyone, share your thoughts, for this can be quite a hot subject. Like, not many (read: none) groups are doing any english stuff, for this still needs mch researching...


Szabolcs

[BrandonHeslop]

"Please anyone, share your thoughts, for this can be quite a hot subject. Like, not many (read: none) groups are doing any english stuff, for this still needs mch researching.."

I know!

It was one of the things, (being descended from English blood, and a rabid Anglophile, to boot) that vexed me the most when I first started studying WMA seriously.

Undoubtedly, the English schools were very similiar, in terms of ciriculum\techniques, to their Continental counterparts; but it would be nice to know what my ancestors called these things, instead of what some German guy called them. Not that said German guy wasn't cool, if you take my meaning.

I thought that the Robuck might be Vom Tag, as well, I just wasn't quite sure...

Thanks!

-B.

[Jon Pellett]

Hawksbill??? Where is that from? Cool.

I think it is possible that an "hauke" is actually an "auke stroke", which means a reverse blow. This would fit with "ij awks for ye wrong syde" in Cotton Titus. I don't think it is a fendente, because it comes in so many variations (nine?), and it can apparently go upward (as in "smyte a large hauke vp in to ye skye" in the Encounters in Harley). Do you have any references to "hauke/hawk" as a blow/guard/whatever in other sources?

There is an "hocke" in Mars His Field, and the equivalent Dutch term *might* be in De Nassausche Wapen-handelinge, but I can't get a hold of it.

A "pendant" (which means "hanging") is a possible guard; it would probably be something like Ochs or Hangenort. (As in "The Dragon's Tail with a Pendant" from Leydall, and "abide upon a pendant and lose not thy land" in the Harleian verse.)

Most people associate "robecke" with "rabett"; if "rabett" is a form of "rebate" (to beat back/down, similar to rebatter in Fiore) then "robecke" could be a form of "rebuke", which is more or less synonymous. Whatever it is, you can "break a foin at the shoulder with a robecke", which doesn't sound like a guard to me (but of course I could be wrong.)

BTW, does anyone have actual literary evidence for any of these interpretations, or is it all based on what works? I've looked into this a fair bit, and have found precious little. I would love to hear about whatever evidence you've got, if you're willing to share.

Cheers

[Ben Strickling]

Interesting subject! I wish I had more to contribute, but perhaps I'll have more to say later when I've had the chance to do some research.

Anyway here's my two cents as well: I've noticed that "Hawk" or "Hauke" also means "Hack" in some English dialects. The fact that spelling wasn't completely standardized even during the Renaissance leads Hack to be spelled "Hauk" or "Hauke" in some cases. A quick check to the Oxford English Dictionary confirms this, though the examples in the OED are all a bit recent. I wish I had some examples to give to show this, but I'll have to research it a bit more and get back to you.

Do you think that in this specific case the Hauke referred to in many texts is actually how we now spell Hack? <img src="/forum/images/icons/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'd be interested in hearing thoughts/opinions.