leather armor?

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DaveSmith
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leather armor?

Postby DaveSmith » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:21 am

I've always had a keen interest in lightweight leather armor, but I can't find a good place to get it. Everywhere I've seen seems to make fantasy leather armor. Can anyone tell me where to look into attractive "semi-realistic" leather armor?
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Derek Gulas
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Re: leather armor?

Postby Derek Gulas » Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:37 pm

Hi Dave,

Here's a link to Albion Armorers. They have a ringmaille jacket that seems to be made mostly out of leather. http://www.albion-swords.com/armor/mercenary/ringjack.htm
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DaveSmith
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Re: leather armor?

Postby DaveSmith » Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:32 am

thanks, I hadn't seen that on their site before. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for. Anyone else with more info... keep it comin'! <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />
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JeanryChandler
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Re: leather armor?

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:43 am

Most of what I have seen that is actually effective is lamellar. I know of cuir boilli being used historically for the limbs but haven't seen too much for the body, and have noticed the same problem you have with reproductions. Most other armor made of leather for the body would be awful thick and cumbersome I'm guessing.

There is some leather armor available here for LARP games, but obviously not functional

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/LRP_Body_Armour.html

There is some available here as well, mostly fantasy again, but a little heavier... the lamlellar vest looks like it might be fairly functional.

http://www.schmitthenner.com/cuirass.htm

These guys have some decent looking lamellar as well

http://www.theinnerbailey.com/armor.htm#lamellar

And this one is nice because you can buy your own lames and make your own armor...

http://www.skaldic.com/Pages/bodyarmory.htm

Hope that helps

Jeanry
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JeanryChandler
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Re: leather armor?

Postby JeanryChandler » Tue Nov 29, 2005 3:01 am

Incidentally for the record I think padded /quilted armor was much more common than leather, at least in Europe, and may have been more effective.

Jr
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DaveSmith
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Re: leather armor?

Postby DaveSmith » Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:35 pm

yeah, I've seen and read about more padded/quilted than I have leather (by far), but I must admit... I just like leather armor. Plus, I haven't seen any gambesons I really like. I'll be the first to admit that what should simply be functional armor I've added a desire for "coolness" to. <shrug>
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Axel Pettersson
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Re: leather armor?

Postby Axel Pettersson » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:46 pm

some "do-it-yourself" links:

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm


http://www.diycostume.com/leather_armor.php


I am trying to make some brigandinestyle gear for sparring with the aluminum wasters from Valentine (I think they need to be reinforced with foam or other on the inside to withstand trusts to some extent, not completely sure of the design yet).

We use the hand-and-a-half versions ( a budget choice so we could use them for both two handed and single sword/sword and buckler practice), trusts (and cuts) can be damaging with the aluminum swords, and if sparring partners keep breaking there tend to be a shortage of them.

Also, since they are intended as sparring gear, looks and historical accuracy are not too high on the priority list, but thats just for my projects, not the ones described in the links (I dont want to say anything concerning hitorical accuracy and such for them and leave that up to the more knowledgeble).

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John_Clements
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Re: leather armor?

Postby John_Clements » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:31 am

Yeah, I have cut through all sorts of leathers both hard and soft, thick and thin, with relative ease using a variety of sword types. It was surprising how little resistant leather gave. Only very thick and very hard leather provided any difficulty and even then not against thrusts from tapered blades. It's no wonder that maile and quilted cloth were preferred and that, weight for weight, plate armor was a vast improvement over hard leather.

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William Savage
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Re: leather armor?

Postby William Savage » Sat Dec 03, 2005 11:43 pm

HAY before you go buying that ringmail on albion.com I'm pretty sure ring mail never existed, at least not in that variety.

Im of the oppinion that when the Medieval "Experts" of the 19th century were "inventing" the middle ages they needed an explanation for mail being drawn in two completley different fashions in the same picture, presumubly by the same hand. This is when the concept of ring mail-CHAIN mail came about.

So its much more likely that ring mail never existed and perhaps the variation in the mail in the artwork can be attributed to leather thongs being threaded through the mail rings in sections to stiffen the armor. This is much more likely since there is evidence of it being done in medieval Japan.

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DaveSmith
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Re: leather armor?

Postby DaveSmith » Sun Dec 04, 2005 1:53 am

ahh... now that IS interesting. So is scale mail historily accurate? ....and if it is, was it made with scales sewn onto leather backing? chainmail backing? or both?
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Travis Beamon
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Re: leather armor?

Postby Travis Beamon » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:15 am

Interesting thread, Ive been following it, and though I dont have alot of knowledge on the subject, Matt and I have been looking into it. He could tell you more than I can, and if Parker gets a chance to show up tomorrow he can definately answer questions, hes a freakin armor guru. As for scale Ive been under the impression that is was very greatly and widely used in the middle eastern areas but to be sure and id ask Matt tomorrow.

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JeanryChandler
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Re: leather armor?

Postby JeanryChandler » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:36 am

Scale mail is real, it has been around since Babylonian times. Used to be known as "Jazeraint" in the 'Orient'. In most cases the scales would be attatched to a backing of cloth, probably most often linnen or even silk. (One thing to keep in mind about leather in antiquity is that it was relatively expensive. It's also hot and not too flexible.)

This is a relief of some early sumerian warriors who appear to be wearing scale armor
Image

Scale over mail is a much less common combination, but the Romans actually did have a version like this, I believe it was Lorica Plumata /bird feather scale (their other more conventional type variant being Lorica Squamata aka fish scale ) I might have the names backward though. The scales in this Roman armor were very small and each scale was actually bent 90 degrees and wired into a backing of mail. Most of the armor of this type has been found had scales of brass, bronze, orachulum and /or even silver, so there is considerable argument as to whether this was usually essentially parade armor (meant for display) or really meant for protection. I'm of the minority opinion that it was a real battlefield armor since it was worn by officers, the other type or Roman scale armor being worn by Auxiliary troops and Cavalry.

Plumata worn by a German re-enactor
Image

Plumata being reconstructed by an armorer
Image Image

A modern re-enactor in Lorica Squamata
Image

Ancient (bronze?) scale armor recovered by archeologists, believed to be roman

Image

(Dacian?) Squamata depicted in Roman relief
Image

Anyway, generally speaking mail is much more effective as armor than scale. In Medieval Europe mail basically replaced scale almost completely by the end of the Dark Ages.

It was however much more common to see lamellar armor, (something kind of like scale armor but with larger scales aka lamelae wired or lashed to each other in rows) worn over mail. That was common in the East particularly, from Russia to Arabia, from Classical times into the Renaissance.

This is some lamellar armor from Wisby
Image

This is a depiction of "Klibanion" armor of the Byzantines which is Lamellar over mail.
Image

I think Ringmail is basically a fantasy invented in the 19th century and perpetuated by D&amp;D but I have seen a Russian variant on bakharets ("half armor" or reinforced leather) which used rings over leather. A rare type and not at all common in Western Europe certainly.

"Studded leather" is another major fallacy incidentally, 99% of the time it's misidentified brigantine...

Jeanry
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William Savage
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Re: leather armor?

Postby William Savage » Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:17 pm

Scail mail huh. For some reason im not sure i can support I think it was only common in europe durring the dark ages? However i do recall seeing a picture of a knight wearing scail lames which i beleived to be cureboil. Lames by the way are the horrizontle plates just under the breast plate so i quess cure boil scailes wouldnt quallify.

"Studded leather" is another major fallacy incidentally, 99% of the time it's misidentified brigantine...


Good point deffinatly true a bastardization possibly popularized by dungeon&amp;dragons. the term "studded leather" is a pet peive of mine.

Adam Bodorics
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Re: leather armor?

Postby Adam Bodorics » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:06 am

See the arador article about "ringmail" and such.
If you're lazy: mail means "mesh of chains", so chainmail, platemail, scalemail, etc are out. Scale is scale, mail is mail, plate is plate, and not even plumata classifies as a mesh of chains. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even as plumata is a modern word, just as segmentata, it's the only correct term. And the only thing that is close to platemail is the eastern mail&amp;plates armour, which was used from the eight to the nineteenth century.

Scale was always used, just as lamellar. If you want, I can dig up 14-17th century examples. In the later period, it was the favoured armour of the polish cavalry. But as it absorbs shock quite well, and as it's easier to make 5000 scales than to raise a helmet, or even to articulate an anime, it was always preferred by those who had medium money, but still wanted more rigid protection than mail.

Leather is good - but yes, as John said, it has to be thick and hardened. Else, it's not armour, you see... <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> So for a helmet, you'd want something like 2-3cm, and padding.


Mail is far less effective... it doesn't absorb shock, it can be pieced with ease, etc. Oh, and lamellar was used even in the 1st WW as aventail for sappers.

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Brian Hunt
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Re: leather armor?

Postby Brian Hunt » Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:56 am

Hi Adam,

where do you get the idea that mail can be easily peirced? I have yet to see any data that properly made riveted mail can be easily peirced, and a lot of expieriments that show exactly the opposite. Also, when used with the proper padding garments, mail is pretty good at helping distribute the force of blow, it just isn't nearly as good at it as a ridged piece of plate. Plate distributes the force of the blow accross a wider surface area, mail acts more like a shock abosorber due to it's weight and padding. I have been hit quite hard in both mail and plate, plus have been hit with similar strength in unprotected areas, and I can say from personal experience that mail helps absorb the force of a blow, just not as well as plate.

cheers.

Brian Hunt
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