Unused Weapon Styles?

[Jay Voris]

I've been taking Tai Chi and went to a long pole (8-14 ft) workshop and that got me wondering: is there was a European weapon similar length? I figure there are probably spears that were that long or longer, but is there any historical record of plain wooden poles of similar length? What about polearms?

Another style which seems to be unrepresented in European martial arts is double sword styles where two weapons of equal length are used, one in each hand. The closest thing that I have found is the rapier and dagger weapon combination, but the differences in length are a bit large. Is there a European double sword style similar to the one described? If not, then why did double sword styles evolve in Asia and not in Europe? Is there some inherent disadvantage to using two typical European swords at once compared with the use of two Asian swords at once?

Any insights on these topics would be very well appreciated.

[William Savage]

European pikes were that length or longer, but if your talking about 14' weapons without blades or spear heads, i dont really see why they would be used in medieval europe? or any other continent?
My knowledge of medieval history is better than my knowledge of fighting, but in my opinion a medieval sword is meant to be swung in big circular motions as you step and twist like in modern boxing. Trying to do this in two different directions simultaneously or without pause would be almost imposible.
Maybe the asion swords were a bit lighter, or they did not follow through as thourougly, or they didn't take big steps as they swung?

[Logan Weed]

As I understand it staff training was mean to give you an effective improvised weapon in situation were you did not have anything more martial you were not legally allowed to carry one.

I think the double sword styles were meant more as an eccentric curiosity. I know of no widespread use of two paired swords in asian or european history.

A rapier generally isn't effective against an opponent that's advanced past its tip, the daggers short length and agility make it ideal at close range. Two daggers and you'd lose the rapier's reach, two rapiers and, well, I think it's pretty obvious why this would be pointless.

[Brian Hunt]

Paulus Hector Mair




Brian Hunt
GFS

[Logan Weed]

I hadn't seen this book before, I love it!

Now if only I could read it...

[Brian Hunt]

The title of this plate reads - "The first two binds from the left side with the weak and strong."

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jeremy Martin]

If nothing else, difficulty of use, I believe. Why use two when one is so much simpler and extremely effective? Unless of course, you're Drizzt. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with two long blades, wouldn't the off-hand weapon become sort of a 'shield' more often then not? It's hard to imagine swinging around two such long weapons at full speed and strength at the same time with any sort of consistancy.

[Mike Chidester]

Okay, the thing with two long weapons is, they're much more difficult to use than a single weapon with no commensurate advantage. In fact, based on my experience and observations, fighting with two single-swords is much less effective that fighting sword and dagger. The "off-hand" weapon is too slow to defend, and attacking with both weapons serves little purpose. And comparisons with sword &amp; buckler are even less favorable.

Two daggers, on the other hand, is a legitimate historical style that is seen in some manuals, and I kind of enjoy that. Stew has speculated about the possiblity of fighting with two smallswords, but that basically amounts to the same thing.

Now then, Brian has a method if fighting with two swords that I've seen him use, the basic premise of which is covering one line of attack while striking down its opposite, and switching back and forth in this manner. However, a strong beat with a two-handed weapon can off-set both swords at once, and their slower recovery time leaves the wielder wide open for a counter-attack.

Stew also has a technique he uses where he uses two-strike combinations to attack, beating with one sword and instantly following up with a strike from the second, or binding with one while cutting with the other. This is also semi-effective, but can be defeated by a competent opponent with a longsword or greatsword.

The short answer is, you don't fight that way because it's much less efficient than fighting with a single larger weapon, and martial arts are all about efficiency.

[Jay Voris]

but if your talking about 14' weapons without blades or spear heads, i dont really see why they would be used in medieval europe? or any other continent?

Well, apparently it is used in some form of Asian martial art, which is why I asked. Keep in mind that these poles are not meant to stay completely straight in the style which I saw. Instead the poles thrusted and then pulled back slightly with a subtle twist of the wrist. The person doing this was able to whip the pole back and forth such that at the tip it could hit about 3-4 feet on either side. My guess as to why they would be used without blades would be that blades would require somewhat more precision than what a bludgeoning weapon, and pricision is a hard thing to come by in a 10-14' long stick that uses large vibrations cause the most damage.

I think the double sword styles were meant more as an eccentric curiosity. I know of no widespread use of two paired swords in asian or european history.

This may be the case, but I find it interesting that some of the Chinese martial arts, namely Kung Fu and Chen style Tai Chi, make use of double weapons. Also, I would expect that there would be at least some benefits in using two one-handed weapons instead of one one-handed weapon (two simultaneous attacks from different directions). Of course these advantages would have to be outweighed by the disadvantages (like not being able to use a shield, less control etc.), otherwise the Europeans would have used these styles. But what are the differences that have allowed the Asian two weapon styles to survive as a martial form and prevented a European analog from developing?

[Allen Johnson]

two weapons- there is virtually no evidence of any European "style" using 2 "cutting" weapons. Towards the 1600's we see a "case of rapiers" being used but the attention to it is minimal of the manuals that do adress it.

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/NewManuals/DiGrassi/03001092.jpg (from Di Grassi's 1570 work)

In my experience (if thats worth anything) using two equal legnth weapons is more of a pain than its worth. Often the weapons get bound up where a shorter off hand weapon such as a dagger or buckler would have been much easier to unbind with and counter. I dont think the idea of using a sword in each hand evaded the minds of the medieval knight. Its a pretty base thought. Therefore I must conclude that it was not done that way for a good, martial reason. I really feel that using a shield, buckler, dagger, cloak, or just the hand in general is a better solution that another weapon of equal legnth.
The reason why I think its seen much more in the Asian arts is 1) Generally speaking their swords are shorter and there isnt as big of a problem with them getting bound up. 2) Historically two weapon forms werent nearly as common as their modern practicioners represent. Like virtually everything else in the EMA community its probably a victim of the draw of "the cool" and is heard of more frequently. Dont forget that the VAST majority of an armies sucsess hinged on archers (or some sort of airborn, ranged attack) and pole arms. Eastern or Western- these were the staples.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Well, we (Order of the Sword) actually tried a few things out last Training, in our regular battle with padded swords. That was two Longswords (one in each hand) and two shortswords. To keep the answer simple, have your sword ever been cast aside with full force (on the weak part), while holding it one-handed?
If not, try it. There you will have your answer, why it is not generally used, one sword in each hand. Even a shortsword can be hold only through difficulties with your left hand, for example, if it is hit by a longsword, held with two hands... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

What we do quite often, is a longsword - dagger combo. That you cannot find in any fechtbuchs, but in combat, espetially guys who train with rapier too, tend to pull out the padded dagger with the left hand. Hence the term hand-and-a-half sword <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
In single combat, it's not that much of a use, but in a battle, it has some advantages - if you are strong enough, to fence one-handed with a longsword, that is.

Szabolcs

[Stacy Clifford]

Yes, very long staves (and all other lengths) were used and trained for:



Somewhere I've seen similar art with even longer staves, but I can't find it right now.

[Jeremy Martin]

This drawing supposed to represent training? That sword on the left seems awfully wide.

[Jon Pellett]

William Harrison's Description of England, written about 1577, mentions both long staves and pairs of rapiers as being in use in England at that time, in both cases by rogues and troublemakers:

"This nevertheless will I add of things at home, that seldom shall you see any of my countrymen above eighteen or twenty years old, to go without a dagger, at the least, at his back or by his side, though they be aged burgesses, or magistrates of any city, who in appearance are most exempt from brabbling and contention. Our nobility wear commonly swords or rapiers with their daggers, as doth every common serving man also that followeth his lord and master. Some desperate cutters we have in like sort, which carry two daggers or two rapiers in a sheath always about them, wherewith in every drunken fray they are known to work much mischief; their swords and daggers also are of great length, and longer than the like used in any other country, whereby each pretendeth to have the more advantage of his enemy. But as many orders have been taken for the intolerable length of these weapons, so I see as yet small redress; but where the cause thereof doth rest, in sooth for my part I wot not. I might here speak of the excessive staves which divers that travel by the way do carry upon their shoulders, whereof some are twelve or thirteen foot long, besides the pike of twelve inches: but as they are commonly suspected of honest men to be thieves and robbers, or at the leastwise scarce true men that bear them; so by reason of this and the like suspicious weapons, the honest traveller is now enforced to ride with a case of dags at his saddle-bow, or with some pretty short snapper, whereby he may deal with them further off in his own defence, before he comes within the danger of these weapons. Finally, no man travelleth by the way without his sword, or some such weapon, with us; except the minister, who commonly weareth none at all, except it be a dagger or hanger at his side." [Students of Silver take note - the pistol hath the vantage against the staff. <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" />]

two weapons- there is virtually no evidence of any European "style" using 2 "cutting" weapons. Towards the 1600's we see a "case of rapiers" being used but the attention to it is minimal of the manuals that do adress it.

I have to disagree here. There was the use of the case of falchions on rare occasions in the 17th (18th?) century. In addition, both Marozzo and Manciolino (early 16th c.) have two sword material, and they were certainly using cutting swords. Granted though, it seems to have been more an exhibition style than anything.

Cheers

[Allen Johnson]

I've never heard of the double falchion use... especially in the 17th-18th century? I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer here but what's the source material on that?
I am aware that Marozzo has double sword info but I think the thrust is still a little more used there. Though the cut is used frequently. I suppose I intended my "cutting sword" comment more for the medieval arming sword and things like that. Or the unrealistic notion of using two bastard swords.