Unused Weapon Styles?

[Stacy Clifford]

I don't know the source, but I'm sure that picture represents training. The swords look blunted and I suspect they are probably wasters.

[Jon Pellett]

Hi Allen

I've never heard of the double falchion use... especially in the 17th-18th century? I'm not trying to be a nay-sayer here but what's the source material on that?

To tell the truth, I'm mostly just going by what other people have said; posters on various SFI threads have stated that there are a number of prize-fighting accounts in which double falchions were employed (there's a plate in Miller showing the kind of falchion they used.) I dug up a couple of specific references via a quick Google search:

According to this article: "In July 1700 John Terrewest fought Thomas Hesgate at the Bear Garden with rounds of back-sword, sword & Dagger, sword & buckler, sword and gauntlet, single falchon, and case of falchons. Terrewest received one wound but Hesgate 5 or 6 so he lost the day."

In 1738, there was a challenge in the context of a vicious academic scuffle over someone's revisionist Greek grammar textbook <img src="/forum/images/icons/laugh.gif" alt="" /> in which the author offered to "meet this Trojan Boaster at the Time appointed to exercise at the several Weapons following, viz. Back sword - Single Fashion Sword and Dagger, - Case of Falchions, &amp; Sword and Buckler, - Quarter-Staff." (See this article.) This should probably not be taken too seriously as an actual challenge, but the list of weapons is completely normal.

Cheers

[William Savage]

the excessive staves which divers that travel by the way do carry upon their shoulders, whereof some are twelve or thirteen foot long, besides the pike of twelve inches

It seems to me like Harrison is talking about lances here not staves. he says BESIDES THE PIKE of 12" wich leads me to think he is reffuring to the shaft ot the lance as the "staves" and the spearhead as the "pike".

[Jon Pellett]

Hi William

It seems to me like Harrison is talking about lances here not staves. he says BESIDES THE PIKE of 12" wich leads me to think he is reffuring to the shaft ot the lance as the "staves" and the spearhead as the "pike".

At that time staves were frequently equipped with spikes at the ends. In the illustration of the man holding the staff in Paradoxes of Defence, the staff has spikes at both ends. Similarly, Swetnam mentions "a Staffe with a Pike" and when discussing the disadvantages of striking blows, says that "and if it be a staffe it may likewise be broken, or the pike may flie out..." So there is no reason to doubt Harrison is referring to staves, not spears.

Cheers

[Allen Johnson]

ok I can see that for maybe a later prize fight. I was thinking it was somewhere in something like Durer that I missed somehow. So there still dosent seem to be a use of that in the period where falchions were still being used in battle....yet... <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Allen Johnson]

Im on the trail of some possible references that actually state that the 18th and 19th century use of the term "falchions" (in all of its various spellings) might actually be hangers. More later as I find out sources.

[Pierre Planas]

Talking about two-sword fighting, there's a quote in the recent article "top myths of renaissance martial arts" i found intriguing:

"knights and men-at-arms were equipped typically with double-handed weapons (whether polearms, hafted weapons, or double-hand swords), or with two weapon combinations (swords with maces, axes, daggers, etc.)."

Would anybody have any additionnal information about two weapons use in battle? I'm not talking about civilian defense, such as rapier and dagger or cloak, but really about battlefield use of military one handed weapons.

[Jon Pellett]

Im on the trail of some possible references that actually state that the 18th and 19th century use of the term "falchions" (in all of its various spellings) might actually be hangers.

Miller for one: "Plate IX, the Faulchion, or Hanger..."

Cheers

[Mike Habib]

Adding to the personal experience tidbits, I have tried practicing with a variety of bladed weapon pairings, using padded weapons (double dagger, double short sword, dagger and longsword, short sword and longsword, and double longsword). I've tried each combination against a wide variety of opposing armaments, and we too have found that a pair of swords is pretty inefficient.

In addition to being unwieldy, we found that a pair of longswords does very poorly against longer weapons. In fact, the only weapon that a pair of longswords seemed to perform well against was a single longsword. Against double-handed swords, pole-arms, etc it was a pretty terrible combination.

By contrast, I have been quite successful using a pair of daggers against two-handed swords and pole-arms, much more so than when trying to use two swords. Part of this difference is speed and precision, but an additional issue is the ability to effectively stifle. A pair of longswords cannot really get in 'too close' for a two-hander, because the two-handed sword can be half-sworded. With two daggers, I was really able to get in close and be a threat, and do so very rapidly.

Perhaps the most telling matchup was double sword against double dagger. Here, double swords did alright, but no better than the pair of daggers. Given the difference in length and reach, this makes it pretty apparent that pairing swords has real, distinct problems (enough problems to negate the reach advantage). In fact, we took some time (via a third party) to keep track of where hits went and how they were struck. From this we got the impression that the double sword approach was even more inferior to double daggers when armor was involved, because individuals wielding two swords had real difficulty getting precision hits where required (dagger fighters, by contrast, seemed to get solid thrusts to joints very often).

This is all rather imprecise, and anecdotal, of course, but I thought it might be helpful nonetheless.

[Allen Anderson]

Many Filipino arts can effectively wield two weapons of equal length at once. It is generally done with two sticks, and it gets awkward if either weapon is longer than your arm shoulder to finger tip. (average is between 28 – 32 inches) This can apply directly to blade work, but I find it more difficult when wielding swords.
So it definitely is possible, and to see videos of it being done full contact(with sticks) in an adrenal state you can visit www.dogbrothers.com

[Mike Habib]

Thanks for the link; I actually started out training in escrima before moving into WMAs. I didn't get that deep in it, but I'm hoping to reapproach escrima starting this spring (I moved to a different state in the middle of my initial introduction, hence the hiatus).

Cheers,

--Mike

[Mike_McGurk]

There is mention of a man in a Norse saga who supposedly could wield two swords at once. I don't remember the name off hand and cannot say whether or not this is simply embelishment.