Meyer translation help

[david welch]

I am working on this passage:

Von den Häuwen
Cap. 4

Nun kompt das man zu der kunst und freien Ritterlichen übung selbst schreite, nemlich zu den Haewen, welche das eine rechte Hauptstück im Fechten, wie solches anfangs gemeldet, seind, wie viel deren, was ein jeder sey, wie er gemacht und volbracht sol werden, ist nöttig hie etwas zusagen, will allein hie den freundlichen Leser zu vorderst erinnert haben, Dieweil zwischen dem Schwerdt Fechten zu unsern zeiten, wie bey unsern vornfahren und uralten im gebrauch gewesen, ein grosser underscheid, das ich an diesem ort nur was jetzund gebräuchlich und so viel zum Schwerdt gehörig von häuwen erzelen, so vil der alten gebrauch aber belangt, wie sie beide mit Hauwen und stechen scharpff gefochten, will ich in seinem gewissen unnd sondern ort anzeigen

Instead of being translated like this:

"that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, which is not the custom today, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge"


Can it be translated like this?

"that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, but that which is not the custom today but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge."

Or is this possible:

"that between the Sword Fighting times, when it was in custom for our forefathers and the ancients, and our time there is a great difference, in that not only was the point used, but of old much more of the Sword was used in the strikes which is not the custom today, and they fenced sharply with both strikes and stabs, and thus shall I present this and other points of knowledge."

I believe there is a very real context difference between these.

[SzabolcsWaldmann]

Hi,

"Dieweil zwischen dem Schwerdt Fechten zu unsern zeiten, wie bey unsern vornfahren und uralten im gebrauch gewesen, ein grosser underscheid, das ich an diesem ort nur was jetzund gebräuchlich und so viel zum Schwerdt gehörig von häuwen erzelen, so vil der alten gebrauch aber belangt, wie sie beide mit Hauwen und stechen scharpff gefochten, will ich in seinem gewissen unnd sondern ort anzeigen"

My translation:

"Because there lies a big difference in the fencing of today and that of the forefathers, that I will show in this place, but only that is used and useful now and that belongs to the strikes of the sword (Ort - not meant the ort of the sword, but 'this place", meaning this script! ), yet becouse of the old customs of fighting with strikes and thrusts sharply, I shall tell those as well in the right context and time."

There is much wrong in the available meyer translation to english, for example there was some old debate here, if one should strike from guard to guard, because the translation says so, which is actually not the case as far as we could find out with much help from qualified personal.

greets,

Szab

[david welch]

Thanks! <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Jeffrey Hull]

Meyer may even be implying that the langenschwert of one or two centuries before his time of circa 1570 was more often and threateningly utilised in certain ways, like half-swording, as compared to the fechtfeder of his own time.
Or maybe not.

[philippewillaume]

Hello that is how I would translate it.

From the strikes (i.e. about the strikes)

Now comes that which one follows the art and free knightly pursuits, namely the strikes, which are capital pieces in fencing, as such as announcing the engagement, how much to approach, what the other flows, how he is to be done and driven/ridden, is there something to answer immediately (or is there something needing answering)
Will all the same the friendly reader/teacher have the foremost advice, the balloting between the sword fencing and our times, as divised from utilisation by our forbearers and ancients, an enormous departure, that at this point, I account that to what currently was and in the traditions and as much to the sword damages (lit depradations) from striking.So much of the ancient usage yet longs, how they with both/either strike and thrust sharply (as in for real) fenced, will I demonstrate/show its wisdom and separate point/aim.

It think he is saying that strikes are good and that what they were doing in the past and that it was not that common at his time.

[Richard Strey]

Mr. Waldmann was closest and his translation deviates from mine in only minor points that are really irrelevant to the understanding of what Joachim Meyer meant:

"Dieweil zwischen dem Schwerdt Fechten zu unsern zeiten, wie bey unsern vornfahren und uralten im gebrauch gewesen, ein grosser underscheid, das ich an diesem ort nur was jetzund gebräuchlich und so viel zum Schwerdt gehörig von häuwen erzelen, so vil der alten gebrauch aber belangt, wie sie beide mit Hauwen und stechen scharpff gefochten, will ich in seinem gewissen unnd sondern ort anzeigen"

Translation:
Because there is a big difference between the swordfencing in out time and our forefathers', I will in this place only tell of those strikes belonging to the sword nowadays. Of the elder's use (of the sword), however, how they fought sharply with strikes and thrusts, I will tell in a separate and different place.

I hope this helps. Key points:
- There's a difference between the "elders'" use of the sword and that in Meyer's time.
- He'll now only talk about the strikes used "today."
- He'll show how the elders fought with strikes and thrusts in another portion of the book (separate place).

[Jake_Norwood]

Holy crap...

Guys, this is awesome stuff. Wow.

Jake

[david welch]

Thank you all very much for the help.


philippewillaume said:

It think he is saying that strikes are good and that what they were doing in the past and that it was not that common at his time.

I agree, Philippe.

We have been trying to work out why Meyer seems to be a "Liechtenauer tradition" fencer but doesn't cover thrusting. I personally find the "they just didn't thrust in school fencing" argument unappealing since they obviously did in rapier, cut and thrust, etc.

My feeling about it is that by Meyer's time thrusting was becoming very common and the cut was being used less and less. Meyer doesn't cover thrusting very much, some... but not much, in longsword. He is teaching the cuts, and leaves thrusting to the rapier part of his book. He leaves lessons to other parts of his book in several places in the longsword section... such as:

"What the right Iron Door is, which you will find out should you go farther onto Rapier Fencing, that while it is used in stabbing with the Sword as by us Germans"

and:

"You will learn of the Middle Guard later with the Dusack, whereas that will be done with one hand, here you shall place yourself in it with two hands."

But anyway...

What can you all do with this?

Prellhauw
Diser ist zweyerley: Einer der Einfach, der ander der Doppel genandt. Der Einfache wirt also gemacht, hauwet dein gegentheil auff dich von Oben her, so begegne seinem streich mit einer Zwerch, als bald es dan glitzt so zuck das Schwerdt umb deinen Kopf, unnd schlag von deiner Lincken mit außwendiger letzer flech, zu seinem Ohr, aller ding wie das reosser Bild zur Rechten hand in der Figur K außweißt, das das Schwerdt widerumb zuruck abprelt, zuck es also im abpreleten schwung wider umb deinen Kopf, Hauw mit der zwerch zur Lincken, so ist er volbracht.

Den Doppeln mach also, als bald im zufechten dein widerpart sein Schwerdt in die lufft bringt zur arbeit, so stell dich in den Rechten Ochsen (davon im nechsten Capitel) zucke das Schwerdt umb dein Haupt, unnd Hauw mit inwendiger flech von deiner Rechten starck wider seine klinge, das dir dein Knopf im schlag unden an die spindel rühre, wie solchs an dem grossern Bild in der Figur I verzeichnet, gegen der Lincken handt zusehen, im streich aber trit mit deinem rechten fuß wol umb seinen Lincke, und so bald es glitzt oder rühret, so ruck es ubersich, reiß in des gegen der Lincken seiten gleich mit auß, und schlage behend außwendig mit ebichter handt wider umb zu derselben Blöß hinein, nemlich mit letzer oder ebichter fleche, als wann es sich in einem widerprell also herte umbprellt, so hastu ihn recht gemacht.

We have what we think is a much better technique we developed from an older translation... but want to be sure of the translation before we let it out.

Thanks,
David

[Jeffrey Hull]

By the way, Forgeng just very recently finished and got published his Meyer thing:

http://fm.greenhillbooks.com/greenhill/FMPro?-db=greenhillbooks.fp5&amp;-format=record%5fdetail.htm&amp;-lay=layout%201&amp;title=The%20Art%20of%20Combat&amp;-find=

[Mike Cartier]

Mine is already on its way from the Amazon UK site
can't wait.