Paradoxal weapons...

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Dmitriy Sobolev
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Paradoxal weapons...

Postby Dmitriy Sobolev » Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:26 am

In the "Paradoxes of defence" by George Silver (1599) there is wide variety of polearms mentioned. It's difficult to find any pictures or descriptions of some of them. Does anyone know anything about appearance of these specimens and difference between them?

Black bill and Forest bill
Half-pike, Morris (moorish) pike and javelin (not a throwing spear in this case, but a weapon for hand-to-hand fight).
Welch (welsh?) hook.
Glaive and Partisane - both weapons are usuall, but are these terms used in "Paradoxes of defence" in common sense?

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Jon Pellett
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Re: Paradoxal weapons...

Postby Jon Pellett » Sun Apr 30, 2006 6:21 am

Tough question!

Bills: as far as I am aware no one is sure of the difference between the various types of bill. Even agricultural bill-hooks come in many regional styles. However, I gather that a black bill was a military type. According to Silver himself the black bill is a "weapon of weight" i.e. typically 5 to 6 feet long and fairly heavy, while the forest bill or Welsh hook should be 8 or 9 feet in length and presumably lighter. Welsh hooks were, unsurprisingly, associated with Welsh people, and I get the vague impression that they were often carried by unsavoury types - swashbucklers and bully-boys.This Netsword thread has a picture of a Welsh hook, albeit from long after Silver.

I'm not sure whether forest bill and Welsh hook are the same thing or not - I suspect they are slightly different - but clearly they can both be used the same way, to hook, cut, and thrust.

A Morris pike is just a regular (15-18 foot long) pike of the time, while a half-pike is just a shorter version, pretty much a regular spear - for Silver, 8 to 9 feet long preferably.

The javelin is a tricky one - according to Florio partesana, lancia, giavellotto, spontone, and spedo can all be translated as javelin! The English version of DiGrassi renders spiedo as javelin. Cotgrave says a iaveline is "a weapon in size between a pike and a partisan." In heraldry it is a barbed spear.

DiGrassi says that the javelin is much like the partisan, but "hath small force in the edge", so presumably has a lighter, narrower head.

IMHO then it is pretty much a spiedo or spetum, but in any case a spear-like stabby polearm with lugs or wings of some sort, similar to a boar-spear or partisan.

As for glaive and partisan, yes, I think they are as commonly meant.

Cheers

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Dmitriy Sobolev
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Re: Paradoxal weapons...

Postby Dmitriy Sobolev » Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:26 am

Thanks a lot!

I also found a picture of a welsh hook posted by Paul Wagner on the swordforum.
Image

Those polearms are known among our reenactors as "nightmares on the shaft" due to a great variety of forms and names and difficulties of classification. <img src="/forum/images/icons/frown.gif" alt="" />

And I'm very surprised by the definition of "morris pike". Duelling is a very strange application for full-sized, heavy and bulky infantry pike. <img src="/forum/images/icons/shocked.gif" alt="" />

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Jeffrey Hull
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Re: Paradoxal weapons...

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:05 am

Hey:

Our friends at Schola Gladiatoria host a photo-gallery.

Here is URL for helpful multi-polearms picture...

Polearms

...Which has this caption on the larger thumnails page preceding it:

From top to bottom: halberd, partisan, ox-tongue partisan, Italian bill, glaive, halberd. 16th-17thC's.

That should give you a decent idea of some of those weapons.
JLH

*Wehrlos ist ehrlos*

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Josh Welsh
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Re: Paradoxal weapons...

Postby Josh Welsh » Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:07 pm

Welsh hook eh? Sounds like a weapon I should research, LOL! Or rather, I owe it to my surname to research it! <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />
"Fencing with a sword is nothing other than discipline...."

Joachim Myere 1570


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