WMA vs. Western Weight Training.

[William Savage]

A sparring friend and I have finnally started using our gym memberships. He wants to bulk up, I however am wondering what the best method for improving my swordsmanship.

So what do you guys think, is it more important to swordsmanship to build bulk muscle or tone muscles?

Historically there seems to be a lot of written refferences to the might or strength of warriors. However there is almost ,in my opinion, no pictures or sculptures of bulky guys.

Also if anyone can say what more modern standing militaries have put emphasis on, go ahead.

Thanks

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Will- best thing you can do to build strength and stamina for your martial interest is working with your sword in hand. See if you can get your gym's owner to allow you and your partner to bring in your wasters and "go to town". If you remember from the 1.0 you were at i gave a short presentation on what I was doing at the time...it has since had several revisions and changes, but that is the best thing you can do...using your sword to exercise with and sharpen your techniques as well, good luck man, AP

[s_taillebois]

In many of the historical images, the 'ideal body type' for a swordsman was somewhat different from that presented in many contemporary movies. The like of A.S. would have been considered excessive, and actually somewhat vulnerable. Plus art can be misleading, artist's will tend to represent extremes. Sort of the medieval continuem from St. Francis to Beowulf to Godiva...their equivalent of our pop icons.
They valued strength, but flexibility and tone were very important. Also endurance, in the Baroque they often did characatures (sp), of swordsmen being somewhat barrel chested. Apparently they felt that gave endurance, or at least the potential of not having tuberculosis or other wasting diseases.
Another reason that the painted images are somewhat slighter, is diet oriented. Medieval aristocrats ate fairly well, but being a glutton was something which was mocked (for example Shakespeare's 'Falstaff)'. And from a very pragmatic view, medieval armies after a long campaign, did tend to be a bit hollow cheeked. It wasn't until the rise of professional state level armies, that they really developed (or tried to) consistant logistical trains. And that happens much later than the period this forum studies. (in the reformation wars, the lack of consistant supplies (and mercenary armies) was one of the reasons the German states were so damaged).
And medieval/Renn food supplies, were very vulnerable to famines caused by climates changes, rodent peaks, and other weird variables. And that was when someone wasn't burning and looting. So unless you were Henry 8th, it would have been very difficult to sustain a consistant diet (and so an heavier body type). Most of the dead from that period, do have bone loss and etc, as a result of famine periods.
Funny thing is, for the upper classes, the medieval Renn diet was in some ways, healthier than ours. Whether looking for tone or mass, hard to do in a society which lives on Coca Cola and hydrogenated oils.

[Jake_Norwood]

Hi Will.

I'm going to weigh in a litte differently. I'm a big guy, and of Germanic stock...I think it's reasonable that there were guys close to my size back in the day...at least the better-nourished ones.

If you're going to do non-sword exercises, which I reccomend, then focus on balancing out your body a little. Not for looks, but for form. I used to have back and elbow pain from the intense use of my chest-and-triceps when striking/practicing. Simply adding pullups to your daily regimen will go a long way to reduce the strain on your back and elbows that having an over-developed chest-and-tris will give you. I also suggest wrestler's bridges and other flexibility-building neck exercises, especially if you're tall or have a long neck (as I do). All of these things have done wonders for how good I feel by reducing strain and the chance for practice-related injury.

If you plan on using the Gym to become an all-around better fighter, though, go for the fast-twitch fibers and compound-body part exercises (bench, squat, deadlift, etc.)

Lately I've taken to lifting for fun (there are two places you should always come back big from--prison and war). It's the only way for me to get out of the "office," so I've packed on a good 15 lbs of muscle. I actually feel really good right now, though I think that is most strongly attributable to the back-and-bi exercises that have evened out my pushup-and-and sword based Army/ARMA workout.

Jake

[Jeff Hansen]

I've got to weigh in with Jake on this one. I think he is entirely right. I would add that your work outs should probably reflect a powerlifting rather than body building ethos. That is, you want to build strength rather than mass. Boiled down, the difference is low reps - high weights. Instead of doing sets of 8-12 reps, do sets of 2-5 reps. Your last set may only be 1 rep. Be very careful with form however, heavy weights increase the risk of injury. Olympic lifts are great too(compound movements, fast twitch), but the safety warnings go double for them.

A quick lesson that took me waaay too long to learn. Diet. I know, everybody hates that word. No one more than me. I wasted years of intense effort, killing myself in the gym and making no gains because I was also on a diet at the same time. To build muscle your body needs food. If you don't want to get fat then cardio is your friend. Preferably with a sword in your hand. Sparring is the best cardio workout I know. And of course there's all that stuff about high protien, low fat, eat your veggies, blah, blah, blah. Unfortunately, it sucks, but it's true.

Anyway, that's my $.02. Hope it helps.

[david welch]

Yeah! O lifts for strength. I am doing power cleans, dead lifts and over head squats.

Then for your fullbody cardio, use a fairly light weight and do all the push presses you can do for one minute, rest two minutes, ten sets.

[david welch]

Over head squats may be the best over all lift, period. It works whole body flexibilty, too.
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/OverheadSquat.html

Cleans:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/Clean.html

Dead lift:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/ErectorSpinae/BBDeadlift.html

Push Press:
http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/OlympicLifts/PushPress.html

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Sorry guys, but you are all crazy! I must admitt that I take a diffrent approach all-together. This is something I have posted on before so I really do not want to get into it again until we are all face to face. It's a great discussion but one that is misunderstood by a great many people. I'll do my best very briefly though:

Powerlifting type workouts do of course build strength, but at the expense of quickness and cardiovascular endurance period.

Bodybuilding for martial athletes is totally useless.

Cardio workouts alone will not work other than to make you a better runner/ biker / treadmill machine god etc...etc...

The best solution is hard to say because all body types require diffrent things but here is a good guide:

Small guys need mass first then they switch gears and work to refine and "cut" what they have gained. Small guys will not be able to only get "cut-up" and get "lean-muscle mass" because there is no mass to begin with-sorry simple fact. Small guys will take a life time to build strong larger muscles because thier bodies finnally alow it as they start to metabolize a little slower.

Bigger guys do not have those issues, so lean muscle mass is better than bulk. Muscle taken to extremes however is never good for what we do....15lbs of muscle may translate into 15lbs of muscle developed incorrectly and poorly ballanced. (for instance guys who focus only on thier chests and neglect the legs, etc...) then it serves only to slow you down and becomes a hinderance.

Look at three body types as examples:
1-Any sprinter: well-developed all-around muscle structures in support of a tuned cardio system: this body type translates well for our uses, but still a little off the mark.

2- Lance Armstrong: awesome cardio endurance potential-no power in upper body. This body type would be very poor for our uses.

3- Bruce Lee- well developed muscle structure, supporting very fast reflexes and cardio, aerobic and anerobic activity. The perfect ballance: lower amounts of body MASS, (includes muscle and fat) and higher amounts of extensor muscle conditioning. It does not get any better.

So there it is fast and simple- Jake the ARMY is well-documented and known for taking big guys and making them smaller and small guys and making them bigger- so this extra 15lbs is probably due in small part to getting back to the more natural "you". When I was done with AIT and BASIC, I weighed a huge 181lbs down from a starting weight of about 240. (not fat, it was primarily muscle-no joke) when I was out I felt good and could run for ever, but a little weak, I worked to put some "size" back on and felt back to my normal self.

Anyway, I would have to sit face to face to discuss more, but I have been a comp powerlifter holding several records, to what I currently consider the best "shape" of my life and it is not due to lifting weights, that is for sure- latter guys, AP

[david welch]

LOL.

Where do I start? I guess with the question "why when weight lifting is mentioned do people think they have to bring up Arnold, or what would happen to your fighting if you become a world class lifting competitor"? You realize that for people working out to fight better the odds of either happening is a million to one, right? just checking. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

I guess I'll go with "Powerlifting type workouts do of course build strength, but at the expense of quickness and cardiovascular endurance period." next.

How does taking a weight on the floor and working at putting it over your head as fast as possible not build speed? Isn't power lifting all about explosive power and speed?

Never mind that I spent this evening doing that... lift a set, set the timer for two minutes and try to breath, lift a set... and spent my last 15 min not able to catch my breath and ready to puke. That's not cardio? That is "full body" cardio, not "run all day and get your heart rate up but your arms gas in 5 minutes of grappling" cardio.

I am working out and fencing all week, and then going and roll on the weekend. And after my Sunday three hour date rape, the only thing I want is more explosive power and endurance, and I am going to work out to get it just same way the guys that are abusing my did to get there. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

However, I hope all the guys that I might get to spar with just do endurance work and don't do any strength training at all! <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

Really... it's bad for you. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

Really... pro football players lift weights all the time, the sissies, and everyone knows nobody would be afraid to pick a fight with them, because they lift, therfore they can't fight... oh, same for those MMA guys too. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" />

P.S. The points in this post are real. However, the format is in jest. If it makes you mad, that means you need to lift more. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Get mad??? Over some post a guy I never met made, please get real.....once we meet you will understand that it takes me alot more than that to get mad. I uderstand there are diffrent opinions, no problem.

At our local study group we had a semi-pro ball player join us for awhile, he was about 6'5" and weighed in around 345ish. I fenced circles around him, because while he could squat about a million lbs and bench a ton, and did wind sprints etc, etc, he was just not very fast or quick and was also not very practiced with his sword in hand. I am not saying I am a god with the sword or anything please do not misunderstand but maybe Kevin could chime in on how those bout went...or maybe it is not really that important.

Do all the squats and lifts you want, roll on the ground all you want, (which is good training, I also do MMA) but it is not moving with the sword, so still does not satisfy our little requirement which was...hmmm oh ya that's right getting better at our art....yah thats right.

So the "weight" in "weight" training transforms into a steel blunt which is maybe ordered a little extra heavy, and wrist weights may be applied for certain portions of the workouts then maybe some pell work followed by some targeted muscle groups and certain movements, followed by some deep lower body movements, adding in some explosive movements, followed by stretching and cool-down exercises...get this all with sword in hand! Crazy!

Now if I remeber correctly we here at this little club called ARMA are trying to reconstruct lost fighting arts of our ancestors, which no one would argue of course, comes from our historical sources correct...so where are the masters telling us to go out and put huge rocks on our backs and do all the heavy lifting we can....no, I see time and again discussions on moving with earnest energy and using your sword for exercise, fencing with double weight weapons etc...

but hey...again this is a very general conversation, all kidding aside, lifting weights will make you stronger, just understand sometimes stronger is not always better, sometimes better is just better- AP

[david welch]

Hey, Aaron. It's just this innernet thingy. You never know how the other guy meant it or how the other guy is going to take it.

"Now if I remeber correctly we here at this little club called ARMA are trying to reconstruct lost fighting arts of our ancestors, which no one would argue of course, comes from our historical sources correct...so where are the masters telling us to go out and put huge rocks on our backs and do all the heavy lifting we can....no, I see time and again discussions on moving with earnest energy and using your sword for exercise, fencing with double weight weapons etc..."

That's how we train here. Do what it takes to stay alive. If you are the better swordsman, try to keep it a sword fight. If the other guy is better, or gets an advantage, try to get past the point and turn it into dagger wrestling if you can. I try not to overlook the ability to close and hit the other guy in a sword fight, and it is hard to overlook the need for strength to close and grapple.

Just think if your footballer had gotten just enough skill to charge through and hit somebody!

[s_taillebois]

Arnold was used as an example, because by medieval standards, he would have been considered excessive. In our society, he would be considered a physical model to emulate by many.
Have to remember when we get into these ARMA historical discussions, the people of the period, were not us. And that includes very different expectations of physical standards for both men and women. (for example, for the 1450's the standard of physical ideal for women was a slight swelling belly, small breasts, and thin limbs...by the Baroque, almost obese women).
Another factor, was also a status element. Aristocrats, for all their sparring and other very rigorous activities...did not want (or need), the different type of muscular development required of say, a laborer, or hod carrier. The medieval was obsessed with heirarchy's, to the point that it even may have affected physical appearences. For example, the people in Sancho's the Fat's (Moorish Spain) kingdom, wouldn't accept him as king until he met their weight standards. Monks, though, could actually get really fat, because of their unique status.
M. Smith, quite right about a certain proportion of people (in the Gothic/Renn) and earlier being close to the size of a fit modern American. It just may have been much harder for non-aristocrats to have had enough early nutrition to become so.
But in all, it was more skill, and effort that mattered. After all, the Gauls (who were reknowned for their large physical size), did not beat the classical Roman's. Nor did the Varingian's who were also reknowned for being large and very strong, ever take Constantanople. The Roman's/Byzantines won over these generally larger people, by the intense discipline in their martial tradition.
Have to also consider, that with many weapons of the period, a few good strikes ended the confrontation. So a mix of strength, endurance, and speed was more important than just sheer strength. Even if one were stronger and all...bloody hard to continue with a foot hacked apart, no hand, or the helm crushed into a mangled mess by some war bec or hammer.
Even as late as Frederick the Great, the over sized warrior, was more of a curiosity than a norm. Although Frederick did have entire units of these type of people.

[William Savage]

Good posts guys

I think I tend to agree with Aaron and Tailleboise though. I die if a 13 year old nerd hits me with a sword just like I die when a 30 year old body builder hits me with a sword. My opinion is now, as long as you've got a capable/able body, its the skill and endurance that matter most.

Thanks

[s_taillebois]

Gentry, one way to refine this discussion, would be to refer to the dead of the Gothic/Renn/Baroque.
One notable change, for those dead the researchers assume/or know might have been swordsmen, was in the forearm. Compared to their contemporary's (and the average modern), the radial and ulna of such men, often were somewhat more in girth, and the protuberences upon which muscles and tendons attached were larger. A good example would be the man who was buried at the early cemetary at the Jamestown colony.
So by the nature of their training, or killing, these men did seemingly need or value, a fair amount of lower arm strength. Both in muscles (as borne out by the larger attachments) and in the ability to take shocks.
Should any of our European members be able to research it, the Knight of Bes, would be a good source. For some bizarre reason (either he was evil, or thought of as very good)*, he was buried in honey, and a lead sheet. As a result, his body is actually still fairly intact, despite the passage of more than 500 years.
*In the Gothic/Renn, unusual preservation of a corpse (by nature or deliberation), was considered a sign of either great sanctity, or of un-natural evil.
Even worse, it wasn't uncommon for the church, or pilgrims, to carry bottles carrying the effluent from some of these type of corpses. Either as a relic (ie in a sword pommel) or as a healing agent (they drank it when in trouble)...

[Jeff Hansen]

Are Arnold, or Aaron's football monster excessive? Hell yes! I haven't heard anyone say that was optimal for swordsmanship. However, I know that I, and probably others, have sparred with guys that just curl up in a ball if you close on them. Because, they don't have the strength to mount any effective resistance against anything I might choose to do once I get my hands on them. For those people, or anyone else who simply wants a little more strength, I stand by my recomendations. The cut off line (where you look at yourself and think, OK I'm big enough) is a personal choice that everyone has to make for themselves. Aaron, if wrist weights and a sword lets you maintain a level of strength you're happy with more power to you. (you lucky genetic freak <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" /> ) Some of us have to work at it.