PVC cored padded weapons...a cautionary note.

[JeanryChandler]

I will also add that I noticed a large increase in peripheral hits to hands and arms in spite of good technique in defending because of the whippy blade of the pvc weapon curving around a cover to strike.

Shane, sounds like you are pretty unhappy with the PVC core weapons, do you have something else in mind?

I'll make an offer right now to donate two sparring weapons to your group, if you will pay for the shipping, and on the other condition that you do an evaluation for us in this forum as soon as you have a chance to test them.

JR

[Brad Patrick]

Hi Jeanry, I made a PVC padded waster yesterday according to your how-to website instructions (with a few slight modifications to make the crossguard larger and less bendy and the pommel more stable), but it's definitely a little whippy, a little 'bouncy' is more accurate as the whole thing kind of vibrates when it strikes anything.

Actually I should mention that the two wasters that you made for Gene are not very whippy, but mine built similarly is, a little. I used EVA foam for the edge instead of that blue camping pad foam, which may be one reason, another reason may be that mine is a little longer, around 50-51 inches on a 47-inch core, also, I have really pinched the edges together and taped them quite tightly so that the blade section is very firm and strong (maybe a little TOO strong, as it might be a bit unforgiving on the skin). It seems that the whippyness of this style of waster is strongly affected by the construction method.

I think the tightness of the tape is what's making it so bouncy, so I'm going to experiment with making the edges a little more loose-fitting as yours are and see if that makes a difference (after I spar with it as it is now once or twice). Also, I might try to de-whip the core by filling it with expanding foam or sand or something. If you have any suggestions as to what I should do to further stabilize the blade of your design, I'd be happy to hear it. When I do get it to look and feel good I'll make a little page with pictures as a reference. I think this style of waster is good, it just needs to be perfected to accomodate the level of force we subject them to.

[JeanryChandler]

Hi Brad

Actually I should mention that the two wasters that you made for Gene are not very whippy, but mine built similarly is, a little.

Well thats a relief, and it's interesting too since you can compare them side by side. They certainly didn't seem whippy when I tested them out before delivering them to Gene, which we did in one case while sparring right there on the spot for about 2 hours.

I used EVA foam for the edge instead of that blue camping pad foam,

Interesting. Did you use the ACOR orthopedic foam for the flats?

Based on what you said, these are my comments:

1) It's probably a couple of inches too long. Cut the core down at least 3", you can retain some of that length with a foam tip. This is probably a key factor. The sword shouldn't be that bouncy, it should actually have a "sweet spot". Anyway, this is probably one of the main genuine limitations to this type of waster, length. You are simply going to have a limit on how long they can be. To simulate sparring with longer weapons probably something like featherswords are a better idea.

2) Don't bind the tape that tightly, thats a mistake. You want it taut and firm, but not tight tight tight. The main effect of this is to basically nullify the protective qualities of the foam by bunching it up too much so it can't absorb impact, but it may also be contributing to the bounciness somehow as well, possibly because you are simply putting on too much tape. Most of the tape should be put on in vertical strips down the length of the 'blade' anyway.

3) I don't reccomend the EVA foam any more. I have tried it on a couple of weapons and I found it compresses too much, to where you can feel the core through 1/2" thickness squeezing with your fingers. Hate to say it but the blue camping pad stuff seems to be the best "edge" material I have found yet, though I'm still looking. Still I don't see how this would contribute to bounciness...

4) I don't know if you used the blue "microcell puff" orthopedic foam for the flat but I do think that it is critical to making a good 'padded waster'.

5) Contrary to the weapon depicted in my last how-to (I'm in the process of making a new guide) I reccomend putting in some taper in the 'blade' shape, as I did with the ones I made for Gene. This concentrates the mass a bit more toward the balance point and I believe it gives the "blade" better more realistic dynamics, including a "sweet spot" or center of percussion effect where the blade does not vibrate if you hit things.

JR

P.S. don't put anything inside the core. That just adds tons of wieght and simulatenously makes it more fragile. The whole idea of flattening the core may be viable though but I dont remember who was doing that...

[Brian Hunt]

I have built flattened pvc cores. This does stiffen the core in one direction, but makes it a little more wippy for side to side. The flattened 3/4 inch PVC cores make a really nice single handed sword, but the long swords flex at the flat. Lately for longswords I have been using platic cores from the top rail of a plastic lattice style fence found at any hardware store. I add some 1/4 inch steel round stock to add weight and glue them in with hot glue and then tape the core with fiber strapping tape. I have one of these swords that is now 2 years old and still going strong.

laters.

Brian Hunt

[JeanryChandler]

I have built flattened pvc cores. This does stiffen the core in one direction, but makes it a little more wippy for side to side. The flattened 3/4 inch PVC cores make a really nice single handed sword, but the long swords flex at the flat. Lately for longswords I have been using platic cores from the top rail of a plastic lattice style fence found at any hardware store. I add some 1/4 inch steel round stock to add weight and glue them in with hot glue and then tape the core with fiber strapping tape. I have one of these swords that is now 2 years old and still going strong.

laters.

Brian Hunt

Can you tell me the specific trade name of this product I'd like to try it out... .do you add the steel roundstock all the way up or just at the pommel?

JR

[Brad Patrick]

Did you use the ACOR orthopedic foam for the flats?

Yes, I got some 1/8 " Microcell Puff sheets and glued them on. It really is a strong material. That reminds me that I wanted to ask if you have cut them flush with the edge-foam or if you let it stick over the edge at all.

1) It's probably a couple of inches too long. Cut the core down at least 3", you can retain some of that length with a foam tip.

Okay, I can clip it to maybe 44 inches and fix the tip back around it. It's close to the length of my NSA waster.

2) Don't bind the tape that tightly, thats a mistake. You want it taut and firm, but not tight tight tight.

Yeah I will cut it and retape a little more loosely. I will try to peel off some of the tape to keep the weight down as well.

3) I don't reccomend the EVA foam any more.

To be honest I don't like working with EVA foam as it is difficult to cut and even more difficult to keep straight and even. It is very good at padding, though (which is why it's so bouncy I suppose), and if I switch to camping pad foam (I hope ACOR sells that) I'll still try to find another related use for it.

I reccomend putting in some taper in the 'blade' shape, as I did with the ones I made for Gene.

Actually it did have a definite CoP. I had put a slight taper in the blade anyway, I hope it remains even and straight when I modify it. Because of its length and wide cross-guard it looks very much like the swords illustrated in Goliath's text.

[Brian Hunt]

I use 2 lengths of 1/4 round stock. One about 2/3's of the length of the core and one about 1/3' the length of the core. They fit in side by side and give the weapon a decent balace without haveing to add a lot of pommel type weight at the end of the wepon. As far as a trade name goes, don't have one. Just go to a hardware store and find the plastic lattice fence stuff and the rails should be right next to it. It has a square configuration with a slot cut into the length of it. It comes in 8 foot lengths so one length will give you two weapon cores. Casper got me started experimenting with this material.

laters.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Jake_Norwood]

Shane,

You're right, it did flex along the flat, but I struck with the edge and the un-giving nature of the post and the maille caused the blade to turn just a little, and the energy whipped the blade right around.

I agree that whippiness is a problem, but a little bit on a cutting-simulator is not too bad. If it's causing whip-hits, though, like you describe, it's probably too much. Then again, you don't exactly hit like a sissy, either...

Jake