Scottish Combat?

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CoreyGray
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Scottish Combat?

Postby CoreyGray » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:44 pm

Hello again.

I've been doing a little digging into my family line and it looks like I might be Scottish on both sides of the tree. As I am trying to become the modern equivalent of a knight (military, faith, family, country, chivalry) and touch base with my lineage, I was wondering if anyone had any insight on Scottish combat. Of particular interest to me would be appropiate styles and weaponry (especially something I could carry on me) that are still functional today, as I am active-duty military and see little point in learning something I can't use to defend myself with.

History, culture, and tradition are also all boons.

Thanks for any assistance with this matter.

David Rowlands
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Postby David Rowlands » Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:07 pm

Im not sure what you could use to defend yourself with today but i do know of three scottish weapons.(At least according to my sources)

The Claymore(Kind of like a greatsword)
The Dirk(I wanna say short sword but...)
The Sgian Dubh(a dagger)

Im part scottish as well, my moms side of the family comes from clan MacLean. I almost went to a scottish festival down here once and my aunt told me that for one of the games you took a big rock and threw it as far as you could.(These guys were buff) Whoever got it the furthest won. Well anyways good luck. :D

~David Rowlands

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:38 am

i would say the Dirk is the most useful in a modern setting.

The Dirk being a 12+" dagger.

Often made of cut down sword blades.

did become part of regimental dress at one point for the highlanders. not sure if it still is.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Jeffrey Hull
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:11 am

I would not deny that certain dirks were made from cut-down back-sword blades etc, but only add that some seem to have been forged originally as daggers in a design that could be called a late-survival of the ballock-dagger.
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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Sun Aug 06, 2006 9:04 am

Jeffrey Hull wrote:I would not deny that certain dirks were made from cut-down back-sword blades etc, but only add that some seem to have been forged originally as daggers in a design that could be called a late-survival of the ballock-dagger.


It is believed that the Dirk evolved from the Bollock dagger, but, the Dirk soon became a unique design. I'm never said all Dirks were made from cut down sword blades, just some. Many were forged especially.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Craig Peters
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Postby Craig Peters » Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:17 pm

Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore, but if you were to look at a manual such as Goliath http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm which covers the great sword, you'd be following a manual that illustrates essentially the same weapon as a claymore. Of course, any long sword manual, (save for those specific to harnischfechten), would be applicable for training, but Goliath specifically has the same type of robuster cutting sword similar to the claymore.

A translation of Goliath can be found here: http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.html

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:58 pm

Craig Peters wrote:Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore, but if you were to look at a manual such as Goliath http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm which covers the great sword, you'd be following a manual that illustrates essentially the same weapon as a claymore. Of course, any long sword manual, (save for those specific to harnischfechten), would be applicable for training, but Goliath specifically has the same type of robuster cutting sword similar to the claymore.

A translation of Goliath can be found here: http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.html


it has been found, that Claymore actually refers to the Basket Hilted Broadsword, and that the Two Handed swords were just called Two Handed Sword.

My Source?

The Words "Claymore" and "Broadsword" by Paul Wagnr and Christopher Thompson in Spada 2: An Anthology of Swordsmanship
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:50 am

Wahoo! This is my stuff :)

Ok heres the skinny version of Scottish fighting:

It is true that the only weapon that was called a 'claymore' by Highland Scots was the baskethilt variety.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =19&pos=95
The Gaelic word for this sword is "claidheamh-mor ". There are also single edged baskethilted backswords which had the Gaelic name of "claidheamh cuil". http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =19&pos=68

There are late 18th century documents where English visitors to the Scottish highlands must have been confused or misinformed and refer to the two handed swords as 'claymores'. There are dozens of instances from Scottish and English sourses that refer to the basket hilt sword as a 'claymore'. This is also the only weapon to be propperly known in its time as a "broadsword'.

The large two handed sword most people call a claymore was known by the Gaelic word, "claidheamh da laimh" - If you see people today refering to a 'CDL' this is what they are talking about.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =41&pos=74
There is also a clamshell sword unknown by many. As far as I can tell, it was also called a "claidheamh da laimh".
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... =41&pos=70

It is also true (as far as we can guess) that the Highland Dirk evolved from the ballock dagger. Here is a fantastic article with dozens of historical examples that shows the evolution of the dirk: http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

Now as far as actually using this stuff. In all reality there is not a whole lot of application of this stuff other than perhaps the knife. Just depends on if the knife you practice with and carry around with you is similar in nature to the dirk.
(btw- Im going to be bringing my dirk waster to Jay's dagger workshop in Oct and am excited to see how it works out! :) )

I agree that for the CDL's some German greatsword stuff could be applicable. Unfortunatley there are no native Scottish manuals prior to the 18th century. (Two handed swords were too old for even Scotland by this time) So we dont know EXACTLY how it worked. There is some discussion and debate by others that a better possible source for Scottish two hander use is looking at English staff techniques. I havent had a chance to explore this really, but on the surface it dosent seem too off the wall. George Silver, if I remember correctly, also mentioned a two handed sword should be used like a staff.

With baskethilts there is much more stuff to work with. However, as we start to get these manuals from the mid to late 18th century we can start to see the downfall of practical sword use. Much of the later broadsword manuals seem to be heavily influenced by smallsword and spadroon techniques. Indeed we see the wide cutting blades of earlier baskethilts being slimmed down for this reason. Compare this image with the above baskethilt.
http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/display ... 19&pos=155

So perhaps the best place to start is to identify what you really want to work on. If your main drive is real life practicality then you probably want to look at the dirk. And in that case there really dosent seem to be any native techniques that are identifiable at this point.

There was a Sgian Dubh mentioned earlier... This is a Gaelic term for 'black knife' or 'black handled/hitled knife'. These are small knifes that you will commonly today see blinged out and worn in peoples hose at Highland Games:
http://kiltstore.net/sr_wscot_sgiandubh ... ghlandwear
There is no historical evidence for this being worn in the sock prior to the 19th century. There is documetation of it being worn, "near the armpit". Quite what that means, we don't know. Most people who study this stuff pretty much agree that the Highlander would have worn it or just stuck it where ever he found it most useful. This might have more real world application as its easier to carry around a small boot knife than a 12 inch + dirk. Again, there are no texts on its use so we have to look at the weapon it self, figure out from its design, what its best suited for and work on it from there. I think you would be fine using it with the many modern manuals about fighting with smaller blades. The problem is finding a decent one. 99.99% of the ones you see on the market are decorative pieces and arent funtional as a real weapon. (I've been through 3)

Hope this has been helpful. Feel free to pepper us with questions- especially if its anything to do with Scottish stuff! :)

Sometimes its gets a little too German around here for me ;)
kidding...kinda :oops:
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Craig Peters
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Postby Craig Peters » Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:38 am

Martin_Wilkinson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore, but if you were to look at a manual such as Goliath http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/Goliath.htm which covers the great sword, you'd be following a manual that illustrates essentially the same weapon as a claymore. Of course, any long sword manual, (save for those specific to harnischfechten), would be applicable for training, but Goliath specifically has the same type of robuster cutting sword similar to the claymore.

A translation of Goliath can be found here: http://www.schielhau.org/goliath.html


it has been found, that Claymore actually refers to the Basket Hilted Broadsword, and that the Two Handed swords were just called Two Handed Sword.

My Source?

The Words "Claymore" and "Broadsword" by Paul Wagnr and Christopher Thompson in Spada 2: An Anthology of Swordsmanship


That's not what I understood to be the case:

"Identified with the Scot's symbol of the warrior, the term "Claymore" is Gaelic for "claidheamh-more" (great sword). This two-handed broadsword was used by the Scottish Highlanders against the English in the 16th century and is often confused with a Basket-hilt "broadsword" (a relative of the Italian schiavona) whose hilt completely enclosed the hand in a cage- like guard. Both swords have come to be known by the same name since the late 1700's."

http://www.thearma.org/terms4.htm

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Allen Johnson
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Postby Allen Johnson » Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:21 am

the confusion lies in the translation of Scottish Gaelic, into Scottish English, and English...English. :?

As far as I have read there is no native Scottish source that uses the Gaelic word "claidheamh-mor" to refer to a two handed sword. The English terms, 'two handed sword', 'twa handit swerde', and the Gaelic term 'claidheamh da laimh' are used.

There are accounts of English visitors to the Highlands in the late 18th century (long after the two handed sword stopped being used) that call a two handed sword a 'claym0re' - the English word, not the Gaelic.

There are many accounts written by both Scotsmen and Englishmen from the 18th century that use the English word 'claymore' (as well as 'broadsword') to describe a baskethilt weapon. The Gaelic words "claidheamh mor" and "claidheamh cuil" are used to describe baskethilt weapons. The former being the broadsword blade (double edged) and the latter being a backsword (single edged). The English word 'broadsword' is also used to describe baskethilted weapons.

I can supply documentation for all this. If there is PERIOD documentation for the Gaelic word "claidheamh mor" being used to describe a two handed weapon of Highland origin I am unaware of it. If there is I would be VERY interested in seeing it.

This isn't meant to be a challenge but just laying out clearly what I have learned in my research on the subject.
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Faolan
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Postby Faolan » Thu Aug 17, 2006 8:15 am

As far as training goes, you could look into the Cateran Society, headed by Christopher Thompson in Portland, ME.

He has published a Manual of the Highland Broadsword titled "Lannaireachd: Gaelic Swordsmanship" based on Angelo's Ten Lessons.

[quote="Craig Peters"]Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore,

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Gene Tausk
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Postby Gene Tausk » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:08 am

Faolan wrote:As far as training goes, you could look into the Cateran Society, headed by Christopher Thompson in Portland, ME.

He has published a Manual of the Highland Broadsword titled "Lannaireachd: Gaelic Swordsmanship" based on Angelo's Ten Lessons.

Craig Peters wrote:Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore,


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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:33 am

Faolan wrote:As far as training goes, you could look into the Cateran Society, headed by Christopher Thompson in Portland, ME.

He has published a Manual of the Highland Broadsword titled "Lannaireachd: Gaelic Swordsmanship" based on Angelo's Ten Lessons.

Craig Peters wrote:Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore,


If you want to recreate Scottish Broadsword use, why not use one of the Scottish manuals on it? Or more than one to help create a full system?
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G.MatthewWebb
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Postby G.MatthewWebb » Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:54 pm

Allen Johnson wrote:

"As far as I have read there is no native Scottish source that uses the Gaelic word "claidheamh-mor" to refer to a two handed sword. The English terms, 'two handed sword', 'twa handit swerde', and the Gaelic term 'claidheamh da laimh' are used."

Is the converse true that there is a contemporary reference to the two handed sword being called a "claidheamh do laimh"? I think I asked this question on another forum and I don't remember anyone quoting a passage in support fo the assertion. Do you know, Allen, or anyone else?

Matthew Webb

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Martin_Wilkinson
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Postby Martin_Wilkinson » Fri Aug 18, 2006 12:02 am

Martin_Wilkinson wrote:
Faolan wrote:As far as training goes, you could look into the Cateran Society, headed by Christopher Thompson in Portland, ME.

He has published a Manual of the Highland Broadsword titled "Lannaireachd: Gaelic Swordsmanship" based on Angelo's Ten Lessons.

Craig Peters wrote:Since the (arguably) most ubiquitous weapon of the Scottish warrior is the claymore, you might want to look into training with it. There are no known Scottish manuals on the claymore,


If you want to recreate Scottish Broadsword use, why not use one of the Scottish manuals on it? Or more than one to help create a full system?


I apologise, i couldn't remember Angelo having written a manual on Broadsword. my mistake.
"A bullet, you see, may go anywhere, but steel's almost bound to go somewhere."


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