Muslim swords

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PeteWalsh
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Muslim swords

Postby PeteWalsh » Thu Nov 23, 2006 10:04 pm

This story is in the latest edition of New Scientist magazine, which in turn cites Nature mag as its source. I took this off the NS website but the story in the magazine itself is several paragraphs longer:


During the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).

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Brian Hunt
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Postby Brian Hunt » Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:31 am

I think that researchers will actually find that it is the formula and the manner in which wootz steel is created plus the way that the steel crystalizes as it cools in it's crucible is what forms the carbon crystals that create the carbon nano tubes, not the forging process. The forging process is pretty much the same throughout history. Heat it up, beat it to shape, anneal it, harden it, temper it, polish and sharpen it.

all the best.

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RayMcCullough
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Postby RayMcCullough » Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:00 am

What edge were they suppose to have on the crusaders? I thought the saracens stole frankish swords when they could get them.
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Jeffrey Hull
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Damascussing

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:36 pm

PeteWalsh wrote:This story is in the latest edition of New Scientist magazine, which in turn cites Nature mag as its source. I took this off the NS website but the story in the magazine itself is several paragraphs longer:


During the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).


More "researchers" spouting around terms like "saber" when we know that in like the first two crusades the Islamic armies were going about with straight-bladed swords, and that they found the swords of the Frankish highly desirable for their high quality. I suppose that the existence of other later types of high-quality European swords in the Alexandria Armoury does not mean anything either, according to the Damascus-steel fixated researchers. Maybe some of the researchers could get together with the salesmen on one of those late-night shopping-channel knife-shows and they could all scream in unison "Damascus-steel!" as they make their hard-sell to flea-market retailers. The salesmen make their profit, and the researchers can fund their research with their cut of the take.

Never mind all the fine European artifacts and metallurgical study thereof, showing how well and cleverly thsoe were made. Just proffer a magical nullifying phrase like "Damascus-steel" and everybody goes all misty-eyed, realising yet again that the beast-men of Europe could never possibly have equalled or exceeded the accomplishments of the craftsmen of the refined and benevolent Caliphate -- because even the researchers imply it was so.
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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:53 pm

I can't wait to get a Katana made from Damascus Steel, I will be able to cut through a mac truck with it, deflect bullets and shave my legs all without sharpening it.
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s_taillebois
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Postby s_taillebois » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:22 am

It would seem the aforementioned researchers couldn't have had enough samples to make a overall conclusion. Especially for extant swords from the crusade era.
And anyway, it's not an equivalant situation, to say, when the conquistadors invaded Mexico. The Islamic cultures, and the Europeans had been in substantial trading and raiding context for centuries prior to the crusades. Especially through Spain. So technologies would have flowed both directions. For example, European fortification building technology went south, and Moslim horse breeding traditions went north.
If the Moslim's had a specific weapons advantage over the Franks, it wasn't likely swords. As these would have been different in form, but similar in manufacture. It would have been in such as the horses used, for the tactics of horse archery. Moslim limitations would have been in siege, fortification technologies. Initially, they lacked these, and had to get it from contact with the Chinese, Persians, and later the Franks.
The biggest weakness for the Franks, would have been numbers and politics. Because they could only marry local Christians such as the Syrian's, Byzantines and etc (which seemingly wasn't common), the population of Outremer remained fairly small. After the initial crusade fervor, most who went did not stay to add to the population. Politics, they were constantly squabbling internally...so were the Moslim's. But the Franks never quite had a leader like Saladin, who could really unify these fanctions (to a point, and via a religious aspect). Later, Baybers unified by force and fear, those who disapproved of his rule, weren't around long. Richard being the heir of the Henry and Elanor, certainly couldn't achieve this end. That family couldn't even avoid civil war with itself. The various Baldwin's and such, their power was more premised locally in Jerusalem...they had little authority over their remoter aristocracy.
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S. Hord
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Re: Muslim swords

Postby S. Hord » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:15 pm

PeteWalsh wrote:This story is in the latest edition of New Scientist magazine, which in turn cites Nature mag as its source. I took this off the NS website but the story in the magazine itself is several paragraphs longer:


During the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).


Can you please give us the issue number / information, the name of the writer and their contact information?

S. Hord
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Postby S. Hord » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:18 pm

Mike Cartier wrote:I can't wait to get a Katana made from Damascus Steel, I will be able to cut through a mac truck with it, deflect bullets and shave my legs all without sharpening it.


If you start shaving your legs I'm not training with you anymore. Next thing you know you'll be wearing a thong! :lol:

S. Hord
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Re: Muslim swords

Postby S. Hord » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:37 pm

PeteWalsh wrote:This story is in the latest edition of New Scientist magazine, which in turn cites Nature mag as its source. I took this off the NS website but the story in the magazine itself is several paragraphs longer:


During the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).


I'm being picky here...

Isn't the proper term "Islamic swords" not "Muslim swords"? I'm not trying to be all PC about it just wondering as to the proper sword terminology is all. We wouldn't call European swords "Christian swords" would we? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I'm sorry if I'm being a pest.

PeteWalsh
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Re: Muslim swords

Postby PeteWalsh » Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:44 pm

The Nature citation is in my original post. The New Scientist citation is the 50th Anniversary Special, 18 Nov 2006, p20.
No idea who the writer is - the story is not bylined - nor their contact info.

Sunay Angel Sidrón-Hord wrote:
PeteWalsh wrote:This story is in the latest edition of New Scientist magazine, which in turn cites Nature mag as its source. I took this off the NS website but the story in the magazine itself is several paragraphs longer:


During the middle ages, the Muslims who fought crusaders with swords of Damascus steel had an edge - a very high-tech one. Their sabres contained carbon nanotubes.

From about AD 900 to AD 1750, Damascus sabres were forged from Indian steel called wootz. Peter Paufler of the Technical University of Dresden, Germany, and colleagues studied samples of a 17th-century sword under an electron microscope and found clear evidence of carbon nanotubes and even nanowires.

The researchers think that the sophisticated process of forging and annealing the steel formed the nanotubes and the nanowires, and could explain the amazing mechanical properties of the swords (Nature, vol 444, p 286).


Can you please give us the issue number / information, the name of the writer and their contact information?

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TimSheetz
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Re: Muslim swords

Postby TimSheetz » Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:51 pm

Hi Sunay,


Sunay Angel Sidrón-Hord wrote: I'm being picky here...

Isn't the proper term "Islamic swords" not "Muslim swords"? I'm not trying to be all PC about it just wondering as to the proper sword terminology is all. We wouldn't call European swords "Christian swords" would we? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

I'm sorry if I'm being a pest.


I actually think that if we say "European" swords the other term should be Arabic, or Moorish... etc... To be extra picky, I'd say that a geographic and time reference would be the most correct and accurate way to refer to things like this.

If the article did not, then they are showing giving away their own bias in my opinion.

Peace,

Tim Sheetz
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Justin Lompado
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Postby Justin Lompado » Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:53 pm

I've read much on the properties of Damascus steel swords. I used to have an article on the research and results of examining old "damascus-steel" swords, if I could find it I'd post the link. One point I'd like to make clear is that from what I understand whenever someone refers to "damascus-steel swords" or "wootz" they are speaking in relative terms and describing what is generally accepted to be true: that for almost 1,000 years high quality swords made of wootz steel were being made in Damascus or modeled after that process. Meaning, we have only pieces of steel or samples taken from swords that we think are wootz or damascus-steel, based on generally accepted physical features. Come to think of it, that's what the article was about; the distinct look of damascus-steel swords, with the water-like pattern, and what caused it. It is important to remember that our knowledge of damascus-steel swords is very much like our knowledge of Greek Fire, only less detailed. We know or think we know it existed, but we are unsure of its exact composition and lack exact or specific historical pieces. As far as I know, we have swords that have the famous wave-patterns, but if those are representative of true damascus-steel blades is something we may never know.
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Jeffrey Hull
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Articles

Postby Jeffrey Hull » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:35 am

I would actually be interested in a thorough article about "damascus" and "wootz" as JL mentioned.

FYI, a good article about the European pattern-welded weaponry is here. :arrow:

The Serpent in the Sword: Pattern-welding in Early Medieval Swords
by Lee A. Jones
http://vikingsword.com/serpent.html

There is also a PDF version if you hunt for it.

And at the same website is series of articles about damascus, wootz, hada etc. :arrow:
Blade Patterns Intrinsic to Steel Edged Weapons
http://vikingsword.com/ethsword/patterns.html
JLH



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Justin Lompado
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Postby Justin Lompado » Sun Dec 03, 2006 8:28 pm

Here's that article on Damascus steel I mentioned

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html

I dont think its of much use to use, its about impurities and stuff. I could be wrong though, its been like 2 years since I've read the whole thing
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