Dual wielding daggers

[Peter_Kurdi]

Hello ARMAists,

I've just found your forums looking for an answer for a question that interests me. As for me, I'm a Hungarian game developer who is also interested in historical martial arts (although generally I rather dig Eastern Nomadic saber fighting than Western styles based on straight-bladed weapons).

I'm looking for the origins of the dual-wield dagger style I've seen both in the V for Vendetta movie and the Dark Messiah of Might and Magic action game. I liked the movie very much so I was pleasantly suprised when I discovered that DMoMM implemented a very similar "assassin" fighting style based on dual daggers. Both shows the same moves using the daggers as multifunctional tools for attacking, parrying, catching the opponent, or occasionally throwing them at him - simultaneously against the same target or different targets in an almost 360 degree range, making an impression of a potentially very versatile style.

I've searched these forums for the traces of such style, but it seems everyone agree that documents of such style never existed. The interesting thing is that the movie was released in March, 2006 and the game in October, 2006, which for me, as a game developer, makes it unlikely that the former influenced the latter. The conclusion is that there should be some common source, I just can't find it. Of course, it could be based on some Eastern styles, like kai, but for me it seems to be too "European" for that. Or it is possible that after all it is a modern, "gun-kata"-like fake martial art that was designed only to look spectacular and lethal (which it does in fact) and not to actually work? If it is so, could you suggest me any other media that use it?

Thanks for your time
Peter

[Allen Johnson]

I dont think I have ever seen any traces of a dual dagger system outside of the orient. It's 10 times more practical to have one good dagger and one hand free to grapple. There is no way that in the multitudes of centuries that have passed that someone hasn't tried to use two together. I think the glaring evidence that there is no traces of such a system pretty much proves its ineffectiveness.

[Peter_Kurdi]

I agree that a free hand may be more practical than another dagger. However, I'd like to point out that the simple fact that a style haven't evolved doesn't prove it's ineffectiveness.

For example, I had to learn the hard way that dual wielded light sabers (of course, not the Western heavy cavalry sabers) can be quite effective and can make some surprises, although I know no historic use of it. Why? I'd say because it's only about 20% more effective than using a saber and a rounded shield, while requires more strength, off-hand dexterity and a LOT harder to learn it. Also, saber evolved as a cavalry weapon, and it's hard to dual-wield anything on horseback ... Still, I'd say the mere idea isn't necessarily ineffective... and so it may be in the case of dual daggers as well.

[Gene Tausk]

I agree that a free hand may be more practical than another dagger. However, I'd like to point out that the simple fact that a style haven't evolved doesn't prove it's ineffectiveness.

For example, I had to learn the hard way that dual wielded light sabers (of course, not the Western heavy cavalry sabers) can be quite effective and can make some surprises, although I know no historic use of it. Why? I'd say because it's only about 20% more effective than using a saber and a rounded shield, while requires more strength, off-hand dexterity and a LOT harder to learn it. Also, saber evolved as a cavalry weapon, and it's hard to dual-wield anything on horseback ... Still, I'd say the mere idea isn't necessarily ineffective... and so it may be in the case of dual daggers as well.

Hi Peter:

I assume when you speak of "light sabers" you are talking about sabers that are light in weight and not a Star Wars fantasy LARP.

We do a lot of dagger fighting in the Southside group and because of the type of practice daggers we use, we can go pretty much full speed. Keeping one hand free, we are discovering, is a big boost. Not so much for grappling, although this can be a factor, because when daggers (NOTE: not knives) are flying at full speed, the possibility of getting sliced or stabbed is very great, but as both a counterbalance and a way to "block" incoming strikes. Of course, the blocking arm is going to get sliced and diced, but we are discovering that the person who gets his arm sliced will be able, about 80% of the time, to deliver a lethal stab to the opponent (slicing the neck, hard stab to the face, hard stab to the abdomen, etc.). Not a bad exchange, and certainy validates the old saying, "when you are in an knife fight, expect to get cut."

I don't believe two-sword fighting is historically accurate and, more important, I do not believe it gave the person using two swords any advantage and possibly gave him disadvantages. Now, their are "two weapon" systems such as arming sword and dagger and sword and buckler (that buckler can be quite an effective weapon, just as Stew Feil), but this is not nearly the same thing as picking up two longswords or two cut-and-thrust swords (of correct historical weight and size of course) and fighting with them. Try it sometime with practice weapons of correct size and weight.

Now, there were historical two-sword gladiators in the Roman era who used two gladii when fighting (I forget their name), but this is a different story. First, the gladius was a shortsword with completely different dimensions than a cut-and-thrust or longsword. Second, although the gladiators life was bloody, they fought in an artificial environment which cannot be compared to fighting on the battlefield.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

And the two-sword styles in the 16th-century Italian manuals were also meant to be dueling styles for use against similarly-armed opponents, not battlefield techniques. So if any two-dagger techniques ever existed in a European context I suspect it would be along the same lines.

Can't help commenting about that.

[Jon Pellett]

Uh, yeah. There were two-sword systems. We all know this. So why do people keep saying there weren't? Just because they were single combat rather than military methods doesn't mean they are somehow not valid.

Anyway, to the point of the thread: Harrison, in his Description of England, in 1575, talks a little about the weapons people carry with him. He mentions "Some desperate cutters we have in like sort, which carry two daggers or two rapiers in a sheath always about them, wherewith in every drunken fray they are known to work much mischief...." This implies that there were people using two swords in brawls, and some who used two daggers as well. But these guys were ruffians, not fencing masters.

Cheers

[Tony_Indurante]

Uh, yeah. There were two-sword systems. We all know this. So why do people keep saying there weren't?

I don't think it's so much that folks say that 2-swords weren't used, but that the coverage of their use is relatively minor. I don't think I'd call it a "system" either. It is always presented as a minor addition to the manuals and I can't think of an instance were any master says that it is superior to a single sword.

As for 2 daggers- what would be the advantage to using 2 daggers over 1? I really can't think of one. At our last practice my waster broke and I used a dagger for the rest of the day. I can't think of a single time that I would have rather had another dagger over my bare hand- especially when going against someone with a longer weapon.

[Steven Blakely]

I am not sure i have ever heard of a quote, style. maybe you could invent one. although you do kind of have to be carefull with movies, I have learned in the past that in order to entertain they must sometimes exagerate the truth.

Although i am curiose that when fighting with a rapier a main gaunch is an essantial tool. and a gaunch is nothing more than a fancy dagger. I'm not saying its the only tool just one used allott.

Maybe you could use something along those lines.

[Brian Hunt]

A rapier may have many companion weapons; dagger, cloak, lantern, buckler, round or square target, another rapier (as in a case of rapiers), or it may be used just fine all by itself.

I fail to understand your point about a main gauche combined with a rapier and how that relates to using two daggers other than you would have a weapon in each hand, they would be used very differently than trying to use two daggers at the same time. A dagger fight is up close and very personal, you really need your off hand to grab, seize, and grapple with. A second dagger would inhibit your fighting ability rather than enhance it in my experience

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Peter_Kurdi]

Good morning, folks, and thanks for all your replies. From what you say, it seems evident that whoever tried to fight with a dagger in his main hand votes for leaving the off-hand empty - and also, that no historical tradition exists for using dual daggers. By the way, I've written an e-mail for the developers of Dark Messiah asking the origins of the "style" their assassins use, and if it is based on or inspired by any existing martial arts. Also, I've found a short video demonstrating some moves of this style, if someone is interested. Unfortunately, half of the footage is about archery, and the actual daggers can be seen mainly in the last 15 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81dXKqslS0Q

You may notice that they try to give an impression of that the main character uses the two daggers as equivalent tools and not one as a dominant hand and one as an off-hand weapon. After all, this arises the question that if such styles (whether they use swords or daggers) would be practicable with their crossed-blade blocks, simultaneous double attacks and such moves; which are quite widespread in all fantasy worlds but seem to be absent in the real world - presumably not without a reason. I would be interested if such styles would be effective when used by a strong, skilled - and obiviously ambidextrious - fighter, but even if they would, most probably they wouldn't be more than an interesting oddity being impossible to become a main fighting style of a culture.

Partly regarding to Gene's joke about light sabers I thought I also say a few words about the Hungarian saber, just as a curiosity. As I know, it is agreed that the word derives from Hungarian "szablya" which spawned from the verb "szabni" meaning "to cut, to tailor". Still, the original, early-medieval age szablya had been quite different from the modern-day saber, which has a heavier blade and a large hand guard, looking like this, for example:

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/Image6.jpg

The original design is closer to the Persian shamshir, but an important difference is that the shamshir has a much more curved, D-shape blade, like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... shir1o.jpg

Now, the nomadic-age Hungarian szablya, the design I learn to use, has a straighter, and still S-like shape - that back-curved grip seems to make a little difference, but in reality it matters a lot. The result is that fighting with it feels like reaping with a sickle - and the absence of the hand guard makes some tricks available that can't be done with a modern saber. I don't say it's some kind of super-weapon, but I sure love it. So this is the Hungarian "light saber":

http://varj.freeblog.hu/files/5_8.jpg

Best regards

Peter

[Allen Johnson]

Video games are just about the worst place you can look for quality and accuracy in real martial arts. If you are genuinley trying to learn a real, historical form of dagger fighting there are real manuals that exist from the time period that tell you exactly how to do it. There is nothing that would induce me to take research tips and martial arts advice from the makers of a video game over real, period evidence...which has been provided.

[Peter_Kurdi]

Dear Allen,

I'm afraid you misunderstood my point.

1. I found a kind of dual dagger style in a fantasy video game and I wondered if it ever existed in the real world.
2. Since ARMAists doubt the existence of such style (and I trust their opinion, since it is based on both real experience and the aforementioned historical evidences), I decided to ask the developers if they were influenced by any existing styles, like, for example, karate inspired the gun-kata of the Equilibrium movie.
3. As a game developer and also as a person who studies a historical martial art, I know exactly how much "realism" these games have. (Althought, for example, movements in Tekken and Soul Calibur games were motion captured from real life martial arts professionals, so in a way they still offer a better impression than most Discovery Channel "documentaries" - so they are not necessarily the worst place... But I know DMoMM is not this case).

[Gene Tausk]

Hi Peter:

I think one of the issues that is being overlooked here is that daggers are not knives. I do not think you are confusing the two, but let's get some definitional perspective: a dagger is a bladed weapon appx. 10-14 inches in length. A knife, from a modern perspective, usually has a blade about 6 inches long, although I suppose a weapon with an 8 inch blade can be classified as a knife as well. A dagger is clearly a different weapon than a knife, although obviously similar.

As I stated earlier, and as others have stated, there is no historical evidence, AFAIK, for two-dagger fighting. Now, having a primary weapon and a secondary weapon is historical, as the example with rapier and dagger and arming sword and dagger. However, I don't see the advantage using two daggers in an attempt to use them as two primary weapons. Many times in sparring we have been able to use the time-tested method of using the off hand to grab the hand with the dagger, immobilize it, if only for one or two seconds, and stab away with the hand with the dagger. Clearly using two daggers negates this powerful technique. Still, perhaps one day in class we will give it a try and see what happens.

You and others have already commented on the dangers of trying to use fantasy games as sources, so I won't get into that.

Interesting comments about the Hungarian saber. My family is from Hungary. Where did you learn to use the Hungarian saber? Are there original fechbooks? Also, just FYI, the term "sablja" means "saber" in many Slavic languages as well (don't worry, I am not confusing Hungarian with Slavic languages! ). The word spread from another source.

All the best.

Good morning, folks, and thanks for all your replies. From what you say, it seems evident that whoever tried to fight with a dagger in his main hand votes for leaving the off-hand empty - and also, that no historical tradition exists for using dual daggers. By the way, I've written an e-mail for the developers of Dark Messiah asking the origins of the "style" their assassins use, and if it is based on or inspired by any existing martial arts. Also, I've found a short video demonstrating some moves of this style, if someone is interested. Unfortunately, half of the footage is about archery, and the actual daggers can be seen mainly in the last 15 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81dXKqslS0Q

You may notice that they try to give an impression of that the main character uses the two daggers as equivalent tools and not one as a dominant hand and one as an off-hand weapon. After all, this arises the question that if such styles (whether they use swords or daggers) would be practicable with their crossed-blade blocks, simultaneous double attacks and such moves; which are quite widespread in all fantasy worlds but seem to be absent in the real world - presumably not without a reason. I would be interested if such styles would be effective when used by a strong, skilled - and obiviously ambidextrious - fighter, but even if they would, most probably they wouldn't be more than an interesting oddity being impossible to become a main fighting style of a culture.

Partly regarding to Gene's joke about light sabers I thought I also say a few words about the Hungarian saber, just as a curiosity. As I know, it is agreed that the word derives from Hungarian "szablya" which spawned from the verb "szabni" meaning "to cut, to tailor". Still, the originar, early-medieval age szablya had been quite differenent from the modern-day saber, which has a heavier blade and a large hand guard, looking like this, for example:

http://bermudas.ls.fi.upm.es/~pedro/Image6.jpg

The original design is closer to the Persian shamshir, but an important difference is that the shamshir has a much more curved, D-shape blade, like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... shir1o.jpg

Now, the nomadic-age Hungarian szablya, the design I learn to use, has a straighter, and still S-like shape - that back-curved grip seems to make a little difference, but in reality it matters a lot. The result is that fighting with it feels like reaping with a sickle - and the absence of the hand guard makes some tricks available that can't be done with a modern saber. I don't say it's some kind of super-weapon, but I sure love it. So this is the Hungarian "light saber":

http://varj.freeblog.hu/files/5_8.jpg

Best regards

Peter

[Allen Johnson]

Dear Allen,

I'm afraid you misunderstood my point.

1. I found a kind of dual dagger style in a fantasy video game and I wondered if it ever existed in the real world.
2. Since ARMAists doubt the existence of such style (and I trust their opinion, since it is based on both real experience and the aforementioned historical evidences), I decided to ask the developers if they were influenced by any existing styles, like, for example, karate inspired the gun-kata of the Equilibrium movie.
3. As a game developer and also as a person who studies a historical martial art, I know exactly how much "realism" these games have. (Althought, for example, movements in Tekken and Soul Calibur games were motion captured from real life martial arts professionals, so in a way they still offer a better impression than most Discovery Channel "documentaries" - so they are not necessarily the worst place... But I know DMoMM is not this case).

1. OK - got that
2. I guess the point I was making is that as soon as we learn that there is not a connection with the topic at hand it ceases to be relative to our studies here. If the dual dagger style shown in that game clip was inspired by tibetian fly-swatting, that's fine...its just not a Historical European Martial Art...which is what we study here.
3. Having played Tekken and Soul Calibur I'd be very reluctant to give either one much credibility as far as real fighting techniques. Most of the "martial artists" that do motion capture for these things are stage fighters, actors trained in fight choreography (I know a few people who have done thse through my assosication with the SAFD). I'd hardly qualify them as martial artists-- based on the evidence seen from the moves displayed in the games.

[Peter_Kurdi]

Hi Gene,

What I know about the Hungarian szablya - by the way, it is pronounced like "sab-yah" - I learnt from a teacher at my university. (I studied Literature, but I got to know a lot of History-department teachers and students.) This man is called Csaba Hidán, and he is an experimental archeologist. He is quite obsessed with the idea to reconstruct the ancient Hungarian culture - the one that we had before we arrived to the Carpathians - and he is especially interested in warfare. (As a matter of fact, he had been an airborne infantry officer before). Anyways, he tried to collect as much about how the original szablya fighting could have worked as he could - not only from Hungarian, but also from Turkish and Mongolic sources - forged it to a style and now teaches it personally. Unfortunately, I can't recall any books he have written on his work (he is rather the doer than the writer type), and even if he did, I doubt that anyone has translated it to English. Maybe I could find and send you some Hungarian book, if you are really-really interested and have someone who can translate it for you, but that's all, I'm afraid...

Anyways, here is a clip that has shows some basic moves from 02:10 to 02:30 - not much but that's how it looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y69NLLyrULY

All the best

Peter