New editorial - Western Civ & Spartans

[John_Clements]

Is it just me, or does it seem like a certain loss of "cultural confidence" in some of our colleagues affects their ability to see certain things in terms of the historical values, ethics, morals, pride, honor, and the positive influences these things had on the fighting men who developed and practiced the combatives we now study?

It seems as if some of them hold disdain for the very culture they want to dress up and play fight within. It would explain a lot.

I cannot fathom that someone could pursue interest in "historical Western martial arts" but be unable to understand what that "historical Western" is???

JC

[J Marwood]

But the point of the article is to also see the ideas that led the Spartans, with all of their flaws, to willingly throw themselves at impossible odds. We can see this in many people using many thought processes in justifying it. Here, we can see the noble ideas that connect to our own values in our Western Civilization. Does this mean that the same values are not held by say individuals in China now? No. it just means that we can see a continuum, and that the good in the 300 sacrificing themselves for the better of their society is good. Western Civilization has put together a lot that is honorable, and being the work of humans, a lot that isn't. But we strive that the sum tally is on the plus side. That is the bar we should strive for. And no, the Spartan society was not ideal. Slavery is an abomination.

Thanks Mr Sega. I agree that we can look at ideals such as the Spartans at Thermopylae for inspiration and try to mirror what we see as good in those events.

You know, Great Great Great .....Grandpa did many things I do not agree with. Many things he didn't know about. But he did do some things very well that I can admire him for.

Again agreed, which is why I still can't understand where Mr Clements or Mr Welch are coming from with claims like this:

Is it just me, or does it seem like a certain loss of "cultural confidence" in some of our colleagues affects their ability to see certain things in terms of the historical values, ethics, morals, pride, honor, and the positive influences these things had on the fighting men who developed and practiced the combatives we now study?

It seems as if some of them hold disdain for the very culture they want to dress up and play fight within. It would explain a lot.

Why do you assume I have a lack of respect or love for my own culture? I really don't see anything I have posted, or for that matter any one else, that could indicate such a conclusion.

Mr Clements has still to provide any justification for his claim that Turkey cannot claim decent from Greece, that "Western Civilization alone produced the concepts of scientific inquiry, religious tolerance, individual liberty, economic freedom, and the rule of law" and the other points that Ms Boyden raised.

Instead we have seen multiple attempts to try to change the argument to one of supporters of a culture vs denigrators of it. Rather than resort to this cheap tactic I would really have liked to see the opportunity for some reasoned, knowledgeable debate. Sadly it appears that is not to be.

Perhaps, once the dust has settled and the emotions have died down we can revisit this topic and look at exactly what has come to us directly from ancient Greece, what came from other cultures and what was created from scratch but inspired by older cultures, such as the ancient mediterraneans. However, without an ability to look dispassionately at the facts, to consider amnd make reasoned arguments and to avoid sidetracking discussions into fabricated issues this does seem like a forlorn hope.

[John_Clements]

My editorial makes no assertion re Turkey's cultural origins. It addresses that Western civilization itself is not part of what became Turkish civilization nor was it ever considered such by Renaissance thinkers. That they had one origin source in is not in dispute.

You need to read it more carefully.

And no editorialist is obligated to answer criticisms stemming from false premises ---no matter how firmly they might be believed by the critic.

[david welch]

Mr Clements has still to provide any justification for his claim that Turkey cannot claim decent from Greece, that "Western Civilization alone produced the concepts of scientific inquiry, religious tolerance, individual liberty, economic freedom, and the rule of law" and the other points that Ms Boyden raised.

...

we can revisit this topic and look at exactly what has come to us directly from ancient Greece, what came from other cultures and what was created from scratch but inspired by older cultures, such as the ancient mediterraneans.

I didn't see anything about the pedigree of Turkey, so I'll leave that for others

Interesting that you added the "alone" to the quote.

Still, the rest ...

Show me another civilization that has added the concepts of scientific inquiry.

And religious tolerance.

And individual liberty.

And economic freedom.

And the rule of law.

...

Just one?

Sure, you an find one or two or maybe three of those in other cultures. Can you find a non-western culture that has all of them?

And really, whether or not we borrowed them from other cultures and developed them, or invented them, is irrelevant. We incorporated them all and that is the point.

As an aside, if another culture did develope them and then didn't make use of them, and abandoned them, that would be one of the most pathetic things I had ever heard. You would be better off if you never knew, that you would be if you simply decided to abandon truth and live in dirt.

[Christopher Eastwood]

If the only thing you care about is martial arts, then why study with ARMA? There must be some affinity you have for the Western aspect of the group. John, as our fearless leader, is merely reminding us to take pride in that western aspect.

ARMA is a lone voice in the world and so it is incumbent upon us to take up the call to stand up for the qualities in our art and in the culture that spawned it in the face of those who would dismiss it and denigrate the entirety of the western world to nothing more than a silly group of "rich, white men" who exhibited unwarranted arrogance. That is what led to the loss of this art form in the first place: ignoring the virtues of the past in favor of the fads of the present.

[Martin_Wilkinson]

If the only thing you care about is martial arts, then why study with ARMA? There must be some affinity you have for the Western aspect of the group. John, as our fearless leader, is merely reminding us to take pride in that western aspect.

ARMA is a lone voice in the world and so it is incumbent upon us to take up the call to stand up for the qualities in our art and in the culture that spawned it in the face of those who would dismiss it and denigrate the entirety of the western world to nothing more than a silly group of "rich, white men" who exhibited unwarranted arrogance. That is what led to the loss of this art form in the first place: ignoring the virtues of the past in favor of the fads of the present.

ARMA is a lone voice?

You're saying that ARMA is the only HEMA group out there?

[david welch]

ARMA is a lone voice?

You're saying that ARMA is the only HEMA group out there?

They are one of the only ones that would have the balls to run this article.

Nice change from the "Western Civ: does it exist, and if, should we bother to defend it?" you see in most of academia.

[Christopher Eastwood]

ARMA is a lone voice?

You're saying that ARMA is the only HEMA group out there?

That does what ARMA does? Yes.

But I'm not going to turn this thread into a discussion about "Why I'm in ARMA and not some other HEMA group." So go read up on the differences between ARMA and every other HEMA group on your own time and create a different thread about it.

[JeremyDillon]

I genuinely fail to see where all of this criticism comes from. After reading the editorial, I had no sense that it was meant to convey anything other than pride for the accomplishments of our western civilization. One problem may be that it seems that many are putting this in the wrong context. Mr. Clements did not write this piece in response to the question "What civilization is the best ever?" and I absolutely fail to see any indication that the author believes that the west is the ONLY civilization to have made accomplishments. The editorial seems to me to merely explore and highlight the accomplishments of the civilization that was the backdrop for, and source of, the martial traditions we so adore. The author fails to mention the accomplishments of other cultures because that just isn't what the article is ABOUT. One can compare the accomplishments of different civilizations without implying that one is generally inferior to the other. I most certainly agree with the assertion made by some critics that ethnocentrism is an ignorant attitude, and should be avoided, but (even though I may not agree %100 with some of Mr. Clements' statements) I fail to see any traces of it in this editorial.

[Justin Lompado]

So much heated debate!

Hmmm... read The Histories by Herodotus; the Anabasis by Xenophon, The Conquest of Gaul by Julius Caesar, The Military Revolution by Geoffrey Parker, Carnage and Culture by Voctor Davis Hanson, The Republic by Plato, and Politics by Aristotle in order to get some idea of the identity of Western Civilization. I'd say these are the essentials (however not comprehensive) and are therefore only a primary list of insightful texts. They are the beginning, if you will. In any case, you should be able to pick out a few consistent themes. If you decide to read, I reccomend this way: Read Plato and and Arisotle consecutivley, either before or after the other books listed. Concerning those other books, read the primary sources first, then the modern ones.

*This post is not directed at anyone in particular*

[david welch]

I would add:

The Golden Sayings of Epictetus and The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius, if I may.

They are redundant after your list, but serve to drive the point home.

"There is no new philosophy, only re walking Aristotle's ground."

[Webmaster]

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[Martin Wallgren]

ARMA is a lone voice?

You're saying that ARMA is the only HEMA group out there?

They are one of the only ones that would have the balls to run this article.

Nice change from the "Western Civ: does it exist, and if, should we bother to defend it?" you see in most of academia.

In my oppinion it has not to do with balls!

Many of us don´t see the history in the same light as Mr C. But we respect him for what he does and his right to write any thing he wants on his/your Homepage! This does mean that I have the balls to say I don´t see everything his way but I will read it to try to understand how he see the world.

Please! Courage comes in many shapes. Sometimes they are more passive than at other times.

To the point! I agree that Western Civilization (for the lack of a better name) has achieved many great things! I also agree that the democratic world has done this! I also see that the Western Civilization has harmed the worlds enviroment in many ways in it´s achivements.

Here in Europe we tend to have a collective bad consiense to that reflects on our view of the History of our part of the world. Our ancestors where part of the massacres of native people in South and North America, Australia, Oceania, Asia and last not least Africa. We invented Communism, Nazism, Antisemitism and Fascism (I know I´m on the border here but at least two of those are in the relative far past and I want to mension it for the sake of my argument). All thise things give us a bad taste in the mouth and it reflects on how I feel about my ancestry.

Most of thise things happened after the days of those who made up the system of MA that we try to reestablish. I see the work we do a bit like cleaning of staines and mud that has soiled our culture the last couple of hundred years. To justify and redeem the memory of those whos memory is tainted by deeds done in the 19th and 20th century.

I know this is not a commentry of Mr Cs editorial but I felt I had to explaine where I come from and how I feel before I join the discussion.

Thanks!

[Andrew Jackson]

...apparently when a “white guy” dares writing in general about his heritage and culture he is typically accused of ethnocentrism, xenophobia, political in-correctness and even racism

It's not that I object to in your article: it's that you were writing inaccurately about your heritage and culture.

I love it when people take pride in their achievements.

I hate it when people take credit which isn't theirs.

[Nigel Plum]

I cannot fathom that someone could pursue interest in "historical Western martial arts" but be unable to understand what that "historical Western" is???

JC

I'll admit I'd not really thought about the name WMA before this thread. Western on it's own is far too broader brush to accurately describe what we do. The phrase "Western culture" is too far open to personal interpretation.
The differences between US & Eurpean culture are sufficiently wide (and widening further in the current political climate) for it to be impossible to reconcile them into the same entity.
Further more modern culture has little in common with the medieval world, so the debate is to a large degree redundant.
So John you are correct, since it seems there is no concensus on what western means or even if there is in reality any such thing as "Western Culture" (apart from a conveniant tag for politicians to rabble rouse with). I have decided that I will no longer describe my activites as Western martial arts, but instead use Historical European Martial Arts as this is more clearly defined, and at least you can point at Europe on a map.

Cheers, Nigel