Leg cuts in SCA`

[Jay Vail]

For those of you who are interested, here is a discussion of why SCA abandoned the lower leg cut in the 70s. Supposed safety concerns are the most cited reason, although one fellow allows, "It was done away with more due to long, boring fights where both players legged each other . . ."

Another opines that leg cuts don't matter because the ancient manuals recommend against them. I guess he hasn't read about Wisby or Jarnaq.

http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum2/HTML/002005.html

[Joachim Nilsson]

Hi Jay.

So leg cuts don't matter now? Wow... That was a really, really... stu- ehrm... ignorant statement. Dont matter...? Sheesh! I guess that's why Talhoffer shows a longsword cut thrown one-handed against the leading leg of the opponant...

He obviously missed the point when it comes to leg cuts in the manuals, since what he referred to (in some unnamed manual) doesn't really advice against leg cuts -I personally find it to be advice on how to avoid getting hit by those those nasty leg cuts. But that might just be me and my quirky ideas. <img src="/forum/images/icons/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I have personally never ever come across a manual that states cuts below the waist as "ill-advised" for that matter either.

And yes, he must have missed some vital information on Visby. As well as almost every other medieval battle. <img src="/forum/images/icons/grin.gif" alt="" /> Fun reading though.

And, in conclusion, I'd like to add that I really hope I haven't offended anyone by soundling lika a grumpy smart-ass S-O-B, because that was not my intention. To those who still might be concerned and feel offended -I extend my sincere apologies.

Regards,

[Guest]

Yeah, I saw that thread. Most of the "Medieval Combat and Weapons" discussion over there is really SCA oriented so I try to stay out of it. Certainly, there are techniques intended to exploit the geometry of your opponent's sword being low, whether he is in Alber or has attempted to strike at your legs. I believe Fiore says not to strike at the legs unless your opponent's sword is in on the ground or words to that effect. Of course this doesn't mean that the legs are not a viable target. It just depends on the situation, like everything else.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I think that awareness of attack to any part of the body in HEMA swordsmanship is a realistic thing to acknowledge and train.

I am not sure as to what old manual might recommend against attacking the legs of the foe - indeed, I have read encouragement of such (Talhoffer and so forth).

I can tell you what the Irish 12th CentAD "Cogadh Gaedhel Re Gaill" says about Brian Boroimhe at Battle of Clontarf: it says that he slew an attacking Norseman by making what had to be a low sweeping strike that clove through both legs.

Enough other hero-sagas, whether Irish, Norse, or English, tell of leg-attacks often enough. All the way through the time of Jarnac and thereafter, I do not doubt that such were done.

JH

[Shane Smith]

Why don't you guys go give your opinion in a rational and polite manner on their forum? I did. <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" /> WE can do alot of good by sharing information on other boards as well as this one. <img src="/forum/images/icons/wink.gif" alt="" />

[Guest]

For some reason, my user name is no longer recognized over there and really, I have no interest in trying to reform SCA "fighting" I think that should be left to those who do it.

[John Jordan]

Actually, I wasn't arguing that "leg cuts don't matter" I was saying that they are ill-advised against a skilled opponent in single combat and, thus, not a big loss to the SCA. If you want to be accurate then you need to have leg cuts. The SCA, on the other hand, is more concerned with safety and playability.

Regretfully my posting failed to make this clear.

On the matter of the manuals: while not an expert on the subject; most of the leg attacks I have seen depicted in the period manuals (pre-17th Century) are counter-attacks or preceded by a feint to create a line of attack.

I am, by the way, familiar with both Wisby and the Coup de Jarnac.

[Jake_Norwood]

John-

I can't speak for the Itallian school, though it does appear that Fiore discourages leg cuts, but many masters in the German tradition advocate leg cuts as a regular part of the offence. Talhoffer is full of them (especially "Das Gayslen," or "the spring," which is a low horizontal cut to the legs with only the left hand grasping the pommel). Meyer, though later in 1570, contains many set plays with cuts to the legs as well. I think we're really looking at a difference in traditions and the attitudes of various masters.

Jake

[Guest]

[color="$1"] [/color] John said:

Actually, I wasn't arguing that "leg cuts don't matter" I was saying that they are ill-advised against a skilled opponent in single combat and, thus, not a big loss to the SCA. [color="$1"] [/color]

Again, this is entirely dependant on the situation. In longsword combat, to simply reach out and attempt to strike the lower leg of your opponent with out the proper set up is foolish. He will simply step back slightly an pop you in the head. In sword and buckler combat, or when fighting with large shields, opportunities for legs strikes are much more common. However, if each of you knows that no blows to the lower leg are "allowed" you will fight in an different way since you don't have to worry about this threat. A good example is the difference in range between boxing and kick boxing. Boxers don't have to worry about kicks, so generally fight closer.

[Jay Vail]

I was saying that they are ill-advised against a skilled opponent in single combat

Respectfully, I am not sure this is so, especially in sword and shield combat. Not only do we have the Visby evidence, but there are numerous references to killings by legging in Islandic sagas and other contemporary works. If memory serves, the recommendations against leg blows generally seem to come in works dealing with the longsword. Perhaps longsword masters advise against legging because they have no shield to hide behind while they dip low.

If you've ever fought sword and shield you'll see how eliminating lower leg blows dramatically change the fight. Without leg blows it becomes a head hunting contest in which the fighters generally stand toe to toe and flail away. But with leg blows they are forced to fight at a greater distance and cannot afford to be aggressive because it is so easy to take off a leg.

[Michael Ekelmann]

It seems to me that lower leg blows were the reason plate and splint greaves were adopted before plate and splint cuisses.
I've fought SCA for around 8 years and can see how lower leg blows would change the dynamic. I've got no problem with them, I'd simply add a set of cuir-bollei greaves and be set. I do SCA for sport and ARMA for study.
Cheers,
Ek

[John Jordan]

Matt Anderson wrote:
"In longsword combat, to simply reach out and attempt to strike the lower leg of your opponent with out the proper set up is foolish. He will simply step back slightly an pop you in the head."

Which is the situation I had in mind. Nonetheless I really put my foot in my mouth and overstated my position. I've spent some time looking at my copies of the manuals and there are several leg blows depicted. Oh well, not the first time I've been wrong and it won't be the last. :>

[Jeffrey Hull]

Yes, I recall that Oakeshott points out in his book, "Archaeology of Weapons", the great likelihood of splinted/banded greaves worn by warriors among the Goths and Langobards of Voelkerwanderung. Obviously these men were fighters with sword and shield, so it would make sense that they might want to armour those body-parts least guarded by a shield - greaves for shins and helm for the head. JH