I.33 & Talhoffer

[Randall Pleasant]

I noticed there are two plates in the 1459 Talhoffer (see Jeffrey Hull, pages 259-260, http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm) that show basically the same technique shown on pages 7 & 8 of the I.33 manual (see Jeffrey Forgeng, The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship,pages 32-35; see Freywild, 4r (7) & 4v (8), http://freywild.ch/i33/i33aen.html#16). It is cool to see the images of the same sequence of actions from two manuals 100 years apart correlate so nicely. The Talhoffer images also suggest that opposition guards in I.33, such as Krucke, are dynamic in nature rather than static as I have seen in some interpretations outside of ARMA.

[Brian Hunt]

Yeah,

I have long seen a lot of similarities between Talhoffer and the I.33. The main difference being how the sword and buckler move independant of one another in comparison to the I.33. This creates the advantage of when your arms are seized, they only generally get one of arm instead of two as in the I.33, but the sword arm is more vunerable to attack because Talhoffer doesn't show the use of the buckler as a constant defense for the sword arm so you get images of hands cut off. There is a SFI thread where I posted some of my observations in 2005 on the similarities between Talhoffer and the I.33. http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=56242 In some ways I find Talhoffer's sword and buckler to be a simplified version of the I.33 even though it appears to be it's own system.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS

[Randall Pleasant]

Brian

Another Talhoffer image (see Jeffrey Hull, page 258, http://www.thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm) appears to show schutzen being used to displace a cut from the Second Guard (see Freywild, 9r (17), http://freywild.ch/i33/i33ben.html#17).

Thoughts?

[Brian Hunt]

The problem with the Thott edition of Talhoffer is there is no text to go along with the images for S&B so you are kind of left to guess what is actually happening. Yes the position is very similar to the schutzin (or cover) shown on the top of #17 in the I.33. It could also be a parry or displacement similar to some of the ones shown in the 1467 version of Talhoffer's manual. The interesting thing though is that if it is the same cover as the one shown in the I.33 then his opponent who is striking at him did not perform the action that the Priest in the I.33 says to do against this particular cover. Instead of setting off with a similar schutzen and binding his opponent's sword as the Priest does so that he may gain 3 different possible actions, he just follows through with the cut where he will find himself lying spent and in a position favorible to his opponent for a counter attack. Talhoffer tends to show one of the basic principles of S&B fighting shown in the I.33, control your opponents weapon, or body in order to create a favorable opening in which to hit your opponent. So IMHO it is hard to say for sure what is being shown here unless we can find another image with opponents in the same position along with text in another manual, though it can be fun to guess.

all the best.

Brian Hunt
GFS