New ARMA Editorial: Making Better Sense

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Randall Pleasant
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Re: New ARMA Editorial: Making Better Sense

Postby Randall Pleasant » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:47 am

Matthew_Anderson wrote:
Craig Peters wrote:
Randall Pleasant wrote:
This goes to the heart of much of what I have observed outside of ARMA during the past year. For example, some scholars in other groups have taken a single image of Vom Tag in which the sword is held in front of the chest as literal (while not taking the rest of the images as literal :? ). This mistake in turn leads to short weak cuts in which the arms are rarely fully extended and rather than torquing the hilt they pull the pomel down. These mistakes in turn result in fighting starting at too close of a distance and lots of edge hacking. This results in lost opportunities to attack at longer distances and lots and lots of blade damage. All of this is easily seen in their interpretation of Liechtenauer's Zornhau-to-Zornhau counter. All of these mistakes really come to light at the Application level. The sparing matches I observed that incorporated these interpretations were little more than sword tag.


Another one that stands out to me is people using the Zornhaw specifically as a lead-in to fighting at the bind, rather than using it as a countercut to the head which can result in a bind if you misjudge your strike. Reading what the masters tell us to do does not support the former interpretation at all. Dobringer's manuscript tells us probably at least six times "Do not strike for the sword; instead, go for the man". It really makes no sense therefore to argue that the Zornhaw is only used for setting up krieg when it's extremely easy to use it as an effective counterstrike if you modify your application of it slightly. It also flies in the face of Ringeck's (and I believe Liechtenauer's) warning not to engage rashly in krieg, which is nothing more than winding at the sword.

I can see how some people might interpret the Zornhaw this way, given that nearly every technique that Ringeck describes in the Zornhaw section presupposes that a bind has occurred. But this is self evident; obviously, if your countercut strikes your foe to the head, you don't really need to worry about a follow-up. It's when you fall short, and find yourself in a bind, that the rest of the actions become relevant. And this is where things like martiality, athleticism, biomechanics, (and even a little common sense), come into play when interpreting what the masters wrote. These aren't things that are found in a fencing book. You have to bring them on your own.


I agree wholeheartedly. I firmly believe that in most scenarios, you should be trying to strike your opponent, not his blade. If I throw a big Zorn or any strike for that matter, and I hit you, the fight is likely over. If you counter or cover, and the result is a bind, we work from there. To purposely seek to strike your opponent's blade to arrive at a bind is a misinterpretation IMO and tactically unwise. There are plenty of techniques that will defeat someone who is actively seeking to displace or bind your blade to the point of no longer striking at you, several masters address this.

Scholars

Another observations I had of interpretations outside of ARMA is an excesive amount of binding in relation to an extremely small amount of cutting. The Zorn-to-Zorn counter interpretation mention earlier is a very good example. This problem is not only seen in throughout some longsword interpretations, it is also seen in some I.33 interpretations. For example, at the WMAW 2006 event not once did I observed a full arm cut in the four I.33 classes I attended or in any of the sword & buckler sparring matches. The only cuts I observed were preformed after a Shield-Stike. I am actually thinking that the focus of binding might be related to some people's long background in Sports/Classical fencing and Re-enactment/Stage fighting. In any case, this problem leads into an excessive amount of edge hacking and into many missed opportunities to attack.
Ran Pleasant

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Jeffrey Hull
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Postby Jeffrey Hull » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:32 am

Just to add, in agreement with previous:

I notice an unhistoric fixation for shinai by some historical fencers that tends to lead only to wrongheadedness about striking with an edged weapon, timing & technique, speed & force in fight. At least in watching various "tournament" and "bouting" videos, that sort of wrongheadedness seems evident. Plus it has been evident to me in my own unsatisfying experience with such "weapons".

Not every single tool and method needs be verifiable by the original fencing manuals in order to prove reasonable and useful. For example, if a fencer spars with a plastic waster instead of a wooden waster, or if he takes a daily multivitamin for his health -- those choices are reasonable and useful. Those choices presumably, if such had been available circa 1200-1600, would have been made by fencers of olden times as well.

But if we find that a given tool and its attendent method -- for example the shinai-fixation -- is of questionable material-, health- or technical-worth vis-a-vis the praxis of the Fechtmeister, then such only proves unreasonable and useless. It produces a distorted viewpoint that may lead to unsound and worthless fencing.
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Matthew_Anderson
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Postby Matthew_Anderson » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:55 am

Agreed on the Shanai issue. I find that even with modifications, they are just not "sword-like." They are too light, fast, and flexible and lead to false impressions about how swords behave and therefore false technique. Certainly the technology to create shinai like training weapons exisited in medival Europe. Perhaps not from bamboo, but certainly some similar reed-like material or strips of very flexible wood. The fact that we see no evidence of this type of training tool is significant I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think even the Japanese used shinai for sword training, preferring instead boken, which are essentially the same as the wooden wasters used by the Europeans. AFAIK, shinai were and still are only used in Kendo bouting, which is a relatively modern activity, developed after the period when swords were a genuine form of self defense. No doubt actual swords, with blunted edges and points ,were used by both East and West as well.
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Postby Alexander Pierre » Mon Jul 23, 2007 3:52 pm

Hi all,

Just a short comment on shinaï use in some WMA groups of which I know members: they use it as (non exclusive) sparring tool only.

Regards,
Alexander

ps: told you it was going to be a short comment :)

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Postby Randall Pleasant » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:23 pm

Alexander Pierre wrote:Hi all,

Just a short comment on shinaï use in some WMA groups of which I know members: they use it as (non exclusive) sparring tool only.


Alexander

Shinai are never used within ARMA for sparring or any other type of training. As Matt pointed out, they are just too light, fast, and flexible. A shinai offers us nothing that is not better served by wasters, blunts, and padded swords. Think about it, if the Japanese won't use Shinai for their sword training, why would you want to? :?
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Postby Alexander Pierre » Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:55 pm

Randall,

As the article that started this discussion and the people taking part to it, I wasn't talking about ARMA groups...not even about myself :). My comment was aiming to say that the sparring tool "shinaï" isn't the only tool used to get a feeling of how a sword reacts in one's hands in the incriminated groups (at least in those I know of).

As for myself I'd rather use a metal sword and wooden/plastic waster for training and, why not, a modified shinaï as a sparring tool (having enough judgment to use it as the swords used in training)...for that is what it was invented for I believe...a sparring tool one could use with a minimum set of protection.

My experience makes me prefer modified shinaïs to padded wasters but that is rather subjective.

I think we're slightly off topic now.

Regards,
Alexander

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Postby Alan Abu Bakr » Tue Jul 24, 2007 3:00 am

Randall Pleasant wrote:Think about it, if the Japanese won't use Shinai for their sword training, why would you want to? :?


(this is directed at Matthew_Anderson as well)
Oh? Who says that the Japanese don't use shinai for sword training? Isn't that exactly what it is made for? (though only for sparring of course)
If you say that it isn't used for that, I'd like some proof.

That said, I agree with the criticism about shinai. Being pretty much a beginner, I can't say anything about lightness and flexibility, but...
It doesn't have the form and shape of a medieval sword (or a katana for that matter, though in that case the hilt is probably correct, which I don't know if you can say when it is used to simulate a medieval sword), it doesn't have a separate edge and flat...
Those who live by the sword will be shot by those who don't.
(I neither like the real name rule, nor do I find it to be good)

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Matthew_Anderson
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Postby Matthew_Anderson » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:42 am

Alan Abu Bakr wrote:
Randall Pleasant wrote:Think about it, if the Japanese won't use Shinai for their sword training, why would you want to? :?


(this is directed at Matthew_Anderson as well)
Oh? Who says that the Japanese don't use shinai for sword training? Isn't that exactly what it is made for? (though only for sparring of course)
If you say that it isn't used for that, I'd like some proof.

That said, I agree with the criticism about shinai. Being pretty much a beginner, I can't say anything about lightness and flexibility, but...
It doesn't have the form and shape of a medieval sword (or a katana for that matter, though in that case the hilt is probably correct, which I don't know if you can say when it is used to simulate a medieval sword), it doesn't have a separate edge and flat...


Well, I guess if you consider Kendo to be "sword training" then yes, I suppose they do. :) But tradtionally, in the time when swords and sword training were a serious life and death business, not a sporting competition with extensive and limiting rules, shanai were not used AFAIK. If you have evidence to their use outside of the sport of Kendo, please share it, I may be totally wrong on this, I'm certainly no expert on Japanese sword arts.
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Alan Abu Bakr
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Postby Alan Abu Bakr » Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:57 am

Matthew_Anderson wrote:Well, I guess if you consider Kendo to be "sword training" then yes, I suppose they do. :)


Well no. I don't consider Kendo to be sword training ("way of the sword"? More like "way of the shinai", I'd say), but AFAIK Kendo was, at least initialy, made to be a way of sword traning.¨'
I checked wikipedia.
Apparently kendo didn't have shinai initialy:
Wikipedia wrote:Use of the shinai and armour (bogu) made possible the full force delivery of strikes and thrusts without inflicting injury on the opponent. These advances, along with practice formats, set the foundations of modern kendo.


Also I found this under kenjutsu:
Wikipedia wrote:Some schools employ a fukuro shinai (a bamboo sword covered with leather or cloth) under circumstances where the junior student lacks the ability to safely control a bokken at full speed or as a general safety precaution. The practice of using a fukuro shinai was however not adopted from kendo as the invention of the fukuro shinai dates back to the 15th century. Many schools also practice kenjutsu at advanced levels with unsharpened steel or alloy artificial swords, called iaitō.
Those who live by the sword will be shot by those who don't.

(I neither like the real name rule, nor do I find it to be good)

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Postby Mark Driggs » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:50 am

Most serious kenjutsu practitioneers I've run into spar or train with boken. I haven't met one yet who uses shinai. Then again, I haven't met every one who likes to do kenjutsu.

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Postby Randall Pleasant » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:28 am

Alan Abu Bakr wrote:Apparently kendo didn't have shinai initialy


Should we not then view the adaptation of the shinai as an step in the evolution of Kendo from an actual sword art to a sport?
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Postby Alexander Pierre » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:24 pm

Randall

I think the shinaï was invented in the XVIIth century, quite some time before the change from martial arts to sports then. I am no specialist ofJapanese martial arts...anyway its origins are irrelevent to our choice as HEMA practitioners to use a modified version (clearer visibility of edges, additional weights to ensure appropriate balance & weight) of it or not...

my 2 (euro) cents...(ahah)°

Alexander

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Postby Alan Abu Bakr » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:51 pm

Randall Pleasant wrote:Should we not then view the adaptation of the shinai as an step in the evolution of Kendo from an actual sword art to a sport?


At first I though, "well of course", but...
One might say it was one step towards inaccuracy, in any case.

Alexander Pierre: As you say, it's origins and original purpose is in no way important when it comes to whether it is appropriate for HEMA, or Kenjutsu.
Those who live by the sword will be shot by those who don't.

(I neither like the real name rule, nor do I find it to be good)


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