Waisted or not?

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ßradTimmins
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Waisted or not?

Postby ßradTimmins » Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:58 pm

Hello everyone in ARMA,
I am new to RMA and I have been lurking around ARMA to come up with a training plan. I think one of the most important elements ARMA incorporates into it's methodology is the aspect of real martial art training, and this is the element that interests me the most. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to train alone for a while, because I don't think there are any ARMA-minded folks near me (Vancouver, Canada - BTW, thanks Craig P. for contacting me - looking forward to meeting if possible).

As such, I'm looking at purchasing these swords in this order (money IS an object, but I like quality tools) and I'm looking for a reality check before I proceed.

Start with a waster...The Perfect Waster...
http://www.newstirlingarms.com/woodwasters-haaf.html

Next something pretty, well balanced, feels like a "real" sword and will allow blunted sparring for a long time to come...
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... -meyer.htm

Next something sharp and "real" for the all important test cutting...an Albion Talhoffer:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... er-xva.htm

But now here is a real question:
Why do people choose the following, and what are the pros and cons of each?
1. Tapered grip
2. Waisted grip
3. Waisted grip with wire wrap

Also, I've read somewhere a sharp would be best as the second sword, instead of a blunt. Any opinions for or against?

Then on to rapier...but that's another topic for later.

Thanks to all in advance,
Brad

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Craig Peters
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 5:08 pm

Re: Waisted or not?

Postby Craig Peters » Tue Aug 21, 2007 8:10 pm

ßradTimmins wrote:Hello everyone in ARMA,
I am new to RMA and I have been lurking around ARMA to come up with a training plan. I think one of the most important elements ARMA incorporates into it's methodology is the aspect of real martial art training, and this is the element that interests me the most. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to train alone for a while, because I don't think there are any ARMA-minded folks near me (Vancouver, Canada - BTW, thanks Craig P. for contacting me - looking forward to meeting if possible).

As such, I'm looking at purchasing these swords in this order (money IS an object, but I like quality tools) and I'm looking for a reality check before I proceed.

Start with a waster...The Perfect Waster...
http://www.newstirlingarms.com/woodwasters-haaf.html

Next something pretty, well balanced, feels like a "real" sword and will allow blunted sparring for a long time to come...
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... -meyer.htm

Next something sharp and "real" for the all important test cutting...an Albion Talhoffer:
http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/alb ... er-xva.htm

But now here is a real question:
Why do people choose the following, and what are the pros and cons of each?
1. Tapered grip
2. Waisted grip
3. Waisted grip with wire wrap

Also, I've read somewhere a sharp would be best as the second sword, instead of a blunt. Any opinions for or against?

Then on to rapier...but that's another topic for later.

Thanks to all in advance,
Brad


Hi again Brad,

To be honest, the type of sword grip you use doesn't make a whole lot of difference when fencing. It's really an extremely minor factor. That having been said, a lot of people like the way waisted grips feel in their hands, and they do work well for using the sword one handed, i.e. as a bastard sword. All of my long swords have non-waisted grips and they work just fine for me.

All of the weapons that you linked are high quality and worth purchasing. So that you know, Albion's Maestro Meyer is quite a light and agile feeling sword. I had the chance to handle several at the International Gathering. My Maestro Line Liechtenauer feels less agile in hand, but I've been told it's less flexible than the Meyer, which can be a good thing. As fellow ARMA member Shane Smith once commented, it looks less "sportified" than the Meyer, the latter of which was used for fencing in schools, rather than in the field.

As for the blunt versus sharp question, it depends. The advantage to a blunt sword is that you've got a steel weapon that you can use for drills. It means that your practice sword will handle much more closely to a real sword. You'll also find that a good blunt sword will feel less "blocky" than a waster, even although the waster might still handle very nicely. On the other hand, a blunt sword is less useful for sparring when you're starting out, because you probably won't have enough control to use it safely.

The chief reason why you need a sharp sword is to do test cutting practice. The more time you spend cutting, the better you can understand how a sword actually cuts, and the more you can ensure that the cuts you deliver in drills and sparring are the sort that would actually cut properly were you fighting for real. Sharp swords can also be nice for doing tiprogressions and floryshes, although a good blunt sword or wasters is just as good for practicing them as well. The downside to a sharp is that you obviously cannot use it for sparring, so it's really only good for test cutting and solo work. The other thing of course is that sharps tend to be more expensive than blunt practice swords.

I hope that satisfactorily answered your questions,

Craig

Ciaran Daly
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:56 pm
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Ciaran Daly » Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:03 pm

Thanks for that clear and thoughtful reply Craig: you touched on some issues I had been wondering about as well.

ßradTimmins
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby ßradTimmins » Wed Aug 22, 2007 12:03 am

Hi Craig,
Thanks for your advice. It sounds like the International Gathering was a lot of fun! I just wish I had discovered ARMA 6 or 8 months ago! Oh well, maybe next year for me.

As for my sword questions, you actually touched on the debate I was having regarding the Albion Meyer vs. the Liechtenauer. My choice was slanting toward the Meyer because it was ostensibly designed to feel like a practical sharp (with the proper balance and heft) while providing safety during solo training and blunted sparring (when experience and ability allowed). Also the blade design WAS actually used in some of the period fencing schools.

But now I'm not so sure which of the two would be better. You mentioned that the Meyer was a little more flexible and sporty than the Liechtenauer, which seems to make sense as I presume it would be just a little safer to spar with. On the other hand, the Liechtenauer might feel MORE like a "real" practical sharp and therefore more suitable in the long run with sparring, on a pell or doing any solo practice. The question I have in mind is this: If I was a 15th C. fighter, which of the two TRAINING swords would best prepare me for using my PRACTICAL battlefield sword? (And of course the choice of a blunted sword is not to the exclusion of a waster or a sharp)

There is still one thing about grip styles I'm not sure about. What is the benefit to a wire wrapped grip? I recently had my hands on a practice rapier with a wire wrap grip. What I heard was that the wire wrap was a classic way of providing a durable grippy surface...it also made me want to use a glove after a while. Is it common to see wire wrapped grips at ARMA events?

Well, that's enough obsessing over equipment details for the night. I've got Ringeck's Knightly Art on it's way and I've made my first wooden waster to practice with, so that'll keep me busy for a while.

Brad.

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Craig Peters
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed May 28, 2003 5:08 pm

Postby Craig Peters » Wed Aug 22, 2007 9:18 pm

ßradTimmins wrote:
But now I'm not so sure which of the two would be better. You mentioned that the Meyer was a little more flexible and sporty than the Liechtenauer, which seems to make sense as I presume it would be just a little safer to spar with. On the other hand, the Liechtenauer might feel MORE like a "real" practical sharp and therefore more suitable in the long run with sparring, on a pell or doing any solo practice. The question I have in mind is this: If I was a 15th C. fighter, which of the two TRAINING swords would best prepare me for using my PRACTICAL battlefield sword? (And of course the choice of a blunted sword is not to the exclusion of a waster or a sharp)


Strictly speaking, you'd probably be using either a federschwert (such as the Meyer for training) or a duller version of a "sharp" were you around in the 15th C. The reason I say "a duller version of a sharp" is that swords which were designed to be used on the field had relatively thin edges, and even one with duller edges still handles like a sharp, especially compared to the rounded edges of a federschwert. That is to say, I'm aware of no practice swords which looked like the Liechtenauer existing historically.

But this might not really matter. The Liechtenauer is certainly a better practice sword when it comes to mimicking sharps designed to face full plate armour, which would have been relatively common in the 15th C. And visually speaking, it's a bit more appropriate for the 15th C in my opinion; while federschwerter did exist at this period, the pommel and guard on the Meyer look pretty much identical to a 16th century antique federschwert that I saw while visiting Germany.

Then there's also the matter of which one you find more visually appealing, which is a highly subjective thing. While that shouldn't be your only criterion for making your decision, it's nonetheless an important one.

A good place to read more about the Meyer versus the Liechtenauer is in the thread about the Meyer at the myArmoury forums. Peter Johnsson, who designed both swords, comments on the respective handling characteristics of them. His comments are located on the third to last post on the first page: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9635

There is still one thing about grip styles I'm not sure about. What is the benefit to a wire wrapped grip? I recently had my hands on a practice rapier with a wire wrap grip. What I heard was that the wire wrap was a classic way of providing a durable grippy surface...it also made me want to use a glove after a while. Is it common to see wire wrapped grips at ARMA events?


I'm not sure if there's a specific benefit to a wire wrap grip. It mostly comes down to personal preference. I think you might find that depending upon the wire wrap grip, when your hands get sweaty, it may become more difficult to hold your sword. I like non-wire wrap grips better, but that's a personal preference. Even with non-wire wrap grips though, you still may find that your hands feel a bit agitated, particularly from gripping the pommel of the sword. This is normal and fades with regular practice.

ßradTimmins
Posts: 5
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:28 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Postby ßradTimmins » Thu Aug 23, 2007 1:00 am

Excellent! That pretty much clears up everything. The myarmory thread was really helpful distinguishing the difference between the swords.

As for the wire wrap grip, I noticed with the rapier I was using that indeed, things got a little slippery when my hand got sweaty. Wire wrap is also $200 more on the Albion Talhoffer.

Thanks again,
Brad.


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