About the Windshield Wiper Krumphau...

[Will Adamson]

Holy Cow! This isn't a publically funded research institution. If someone wants to keep something to themselves or anyone else they choose, then that is just their business. John didn't come on here to spout how good or bad X technique is, he was responding to a query about something that he feels he doesn't care to talk about, and gave some reasons. Whether those reasons are good, bad, or whatever is immaterial. This is his decision about his research, end of story.

Others have not released findings of research, but drop hints or old info claiming to be new. Yet these guys are greeted with, "oh I can't wait to see your findings."

There is much more to ARMA than this forum, and this one techinque. If it really bothers you (meaning anyone) that something is being hidden from you, just make a commitment to studying in the ARMA way, and come on over to the dark side.

We don't bite...
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hard.

[Mars Healey]

Maybe I'm naive. No, I must be naive. I come here as a practitioner of WMA and look on this forum site as one of the foremost avenues for sharing ideas and perfecting my art. I try to help wherever I can and I'm never sly or tricky in my responses.

This thread has been very enlightening. Others have told me that there are factions within the WMA community and they don't play well together. I ignored these comments as individual prejudices, but I'm now more inclined to believe that it's true.

My desire is to see the WMA grow as a whole, not a fragmented, dysfunctional community. It saddens me to see the state we are in, afraid, and rightly so, that others will pilfer concepts for their own gain. This forum should be for the proliferation of both basic and advanced ideas that need to be explained and expanded on.

I’m just a student, not a teacher nor an author. I’m trying to get better at an art form that I love and want to help others get better at it too.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

I would like to add, that none of the things I asked to be explained, has been explained. It has only gone a short while, but I only say this so no one forgets.

John didn't come on here to spout how good or bad X technique is, he was responding to a query about something that he feels he doesn't care to talk about, and gave some reasons. Whether those reasons are good, bad, or whatever is immaterial. This is his decision about his research, end of story.

I never said that he didn't have reasons to keep the ARMA krumphau a secret.
I disagreed with some of them and agreed with others.
...and commented on some other things that were said (and added some other stuff that has been bothering me...)

I have heard the phrase "put up, or shut up" on this forum.
I have also seen, on this and other forums, ARMA members dissing the WW krumphau as unmartial, without explaining why it is supposed to be martially unsound.
Saying "bah! That's martially unsound. We know how it is supposed to be done, but we're not telling", is just arrogant. In accordance with the "put up, or shut up" principal, one should then "shut up".
Saying "That that is martially unsound because [reasons]. We have found a variant we believe is correct, but we aren't going to reveal it yet because [reason]", is okay.

Others have told me that there are factions within the WMA community and they don't play well together. I ignored these comments as individual prejudices, but I'm now more inclined to believe that it's true.

Well I believe that it is mostly because of how people have said thing, and not so much what they have said.
...and probably some cultural misunderstandings as well.
Also I believe that ARMA has been rather bad at those things (and at responding to it), and somewhat unwilling to consider ideas they doubt, whilst greatly criticizing the same behaviour from others.
Speaking of which, how harsh criticism is allowed to be here, seems to depend on whether or not it is something that ARMA is critical of, or if it is something that ARMA considers good.
I would like to add, that I have gotten this impression, mostly from being on this forum, and it bothers me because of how much I respect you guys as martial artists.

It saddened me to see that great video, showing how one can easily block with the flat, only to then see a speach that I would, if I didn't know better, think was designed to piss of people who thought edge blocking was correct, and thus making them less inclined to listen to what the video whishes to teach.

I say these things, in the hopes, that you will improve on these areas, and thus getting one step closer to better cooperation amongst HEMA groups, and to get people to, more willingly listen to the good things you say.

For those who think I am out of line, please explain, as to how I am doing so. Preferably with suggestions as to how I should have expressed myself (but still saying the same thing)

Sorry for getting so off topic...

[Sam Nankivell]

Maybe I'm naive. No, I must be naive. I come here as a practitioner of WMA and look on this forum site as one of the foremost avenues for sharing ideas and perfecting my art. I try to help wherever I can and I'm never sly or tricky in my responses.

This thread has been very enlightening. Others have told me that there are factions within the WMA community and they don't play well together. I ignored these comments as individual prejudices, but I'm now more inclined to believe that it's true.

My desire is to see the WMA grow as a whole, not a fragmented, dysfunctional community. It saddens me to see the state we are in, afraid, and rightly so, that others will pilfer concepts for their own gain. This forum should be for the proliferation of both basic and advanced ideas that need to be explained and expanded on.

I’m just a student, not a teacher nor an author. I’m trying to get better at an art form that I love and want to help others get better at it too.

Firstly, as the one who started the 'ARMA... and everyone else' thread, I would like to apologize for putting you through that , it honestly became a lot more than I intended it to become.

Secondly, I know what you mean by being put off by the factionalism in the community. I am still quite new to this art and I enjoy looking at both ARMA's materials and approaches along with other groups approaches. Right now I am a student with Les Maitres Des Armes in Ottawa, a group that does have slightly different teachings than ARMA. I really don't think that differences such as whether to use the flat or edge should be the huge divisions that they are in our community. (Contrary to what ARMA seems to think, I can't see any groups doing doing the mythical static 'edge on edge' parries, it is almost always flat-of-the-edge on the other flat-of-the-edge, if that makes any sense.) I think that people need to be more diplomatic when it comes to open debate about these issues, there's no need to get so agitated and personal.

No offence to anyone in these forums, but I do think that ARMA needs to be a little more diplomatic when dealing with other groups. I love ARMA's methods and teachings, but on a whole, ARMA does have the tendency to come off as being a little bit self-righteous. Again, this is just from what I've observed on other forums.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

I think that people need to be more diplomatic when it comes to open debate about these issues, there's no need to get so agitated and personal.

No offence to anyone in these forums, but I do think that ARMA needs to be a little more diplomatic when dealing with other groups. I love ARMA's methods and teachings, but on a whole, ARMA does have the tendency to come off as being a little bit self-righteous. Again, this is just from what I've observed on other forums.

I agree whole heartedly with this.
...but for me, it has mostly been through observing this forum.

[Randall Pleasant]

...ARMA members dissing the WW krumphau as unmartial, without explaining why it is supposed to be martially unsound.

On another forum, probably the one you are talking about, I did explain why it is not martially sound. The WW interpretation of Krumhau is martial unsound because it does not break Och! Breaking Och means successfully attacking someone in the Och guard without being hit yourself. This is very easy to test with a training partner who has no problems giving you some nice hard fast thrusts and wants to make your Krump attacks fail.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

On another forum, probably the one you are talking about, I did explain why it is not martially sound. The WW interpretation of Krumhau is martial unsound because it does not break Och! Breaking Och means successfully attacking someone in the Och guard without being hit yourself. This is very easy to test with a training partner who has no problems giving you some nice hard fast thrusts and wants to make your Krump attacks fail.

Really? Well that's good.
Could you give a link to that please? I'd love to see that explaination.

[Mars Healey]

Back on topic...

Many beginners are confused by the krump and think of it as a blocking move, when it's a master cut. Probably because it's first taught as a 'safe' attack the the blade with a follow-up twitch. The krump is made with a forward attack to the hands or wrists and becomes an effective disarming move. From vom Tag, it can counter the Ochs well.

Again, the only time I've seen it explained as a windshield wiper is when explaining it to a beginner and showing them the flexibility of sweeping it from one side to the other. Once the concept of that sweep is understood, then the real move can be refined. By side to side, I do not mean flat out to the side of your hips. The Krump ends in a barrier guard, angled out in front of the body, where your opponents hands would be.

I hope this explain it better. Comments? Did I miss something?

[Randall Pleasant]

On another forum, probably the one you are talking about, I did explain why it is not martially sound. The WW interpretation of Krumhau is martial unsound because it does not break Och! Breaking Och means successfully attacking someone in the Och guard without being hit yourself. This is very easy to test with a training partner who has no problems giving you some nice hard fast thrusts and wants to make your Krump attacks fail.

Really? Well that's good.
Could you give a link to that please? I'd love to see that explaination.

My earlier post gives the full explaination. Again, the WW version of Krump is martially unsound because a well trained swordsmen in the Ochs guard will successfully thrust you in the face, chest, or ribs almost every time that you try to break his guard. Remember that you cannot apply any types of rules to the encounter, such as "Krump only works when they are moving into Och" or "Krump only works when they don't know I'm about to use it", etc.

In any case, here is the URL to the thread in question: http://www.fioredeiliberi.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5995

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would rather take the advice of one of the historical Fechtmeister than do what modern critics and forumites want done.

Often when ARMA reveals its discoveries, those get met with indifference, derision, and/or claims of "oh, we knew that all along" from voiciferous critics at every hostile forum -- critics who previously never demonstrated such knowledge, much less had the guts to publish something somewhere, much less proven they were competent fencers.

If we figure things out, from a combination of the teachings of those past masters plus actual martial praxis, then it is our insight. The critics would be better served if they tried to figure things out and present their findings, instead of trying to get us to reveal such in manner either unseemly or untimely. If that garners some sort of irrational dislike from the so-called WMA Community, then so be it.

I think that the words of a Bobby Dylan song are fitting -- from Maggie's Farm

Well, I try my best
To be just like I am,
But everybody wants you
To be just like them.

[Mars Healey]

I would rather take the advice of one of the historical Fechtmeister than do what modern critics and forumites want done.

As you wish. I choose to live in the present and will continue to try to find a site where that is acceptable. Enjoy your cherished secrets in your dark, little rooms. Without a doubt, you have proved true the rumors of the cancerous insecurities that pervade WMA.

[Alan Abu Bakr]

Randall Pleasant: I see. Thanks. I've been a rather wrong about the krumphau buisness (which is good), I see.
Sorry about that, and thank you for the good response.

Often when ARMA reveals its discoveries, those get met with indifference, derision, and/or claims of "oh, we knew that all along" from voiciferous critics at every hostile forum

I believe that, to be mostly paranoia, but then I might be wrong.
..and about vociferousness... well, I know at least one instance where you encuraged someone to be vociferous, by being so yourself (with both of you getting critisized for it), so some of that may be because of lacking politeness.

critics who previously never demonstrated such knowledge

Well had they demonstrated that they didn't have such knowledge?
ARMA isn't exactly known for it's good ties with other groups, after all. Maybe they did demonstrate such knowledge, just not when you've been around?

much less had the guts to publish something somewhere

You don't have to be able to write a book, to be able to fence, so that arguement is pointless.
That aside, there are a couple of other groups, who have made books and/or videos.

much less proven they were competent fencers.

I'll refer to my previous two answers, for this.

If we figure things out, from a combination of the teachings of those past masters plus actual martial praxis, then it is our insight.

Agreed. Even if others were to have gotten that insight independantly.

The critics would be better served if they tried to figure things out and present their findings

Many groups do this. Although some don't spread the knowledge that far, that is not necessarily because of lacking willingness to do so.

instead of trying to get us to reveal such in manner either unseemly or untimely.

Could you please define what you mean by unseemly and untimely?

Also, others should figure things out and present their findings, but you don't need to?
Either you're being unclear, or contradictory.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I would rather take the advice of one of the historical Fechtmeister than do what modern critics and forumites want done.

As you wish. I choose to live in the present and will continue to try to find a site where that is acceptable. Enjoy your cherished secrets in your dark, little rooms. Without a doubt, you have proved true the rumors of the cancerous insecurities that pervade WMA.

Wrong Mars.

I for one have transcribed & translated an entire Fechtbuch, available for free to anyone, including you:

http://thearma.org/Fight-Earnestly.htm

Plus numerous of my fellows have done considerable works, available for free as well, as may be found in Articles & Essays.

So what have you contributed to fencing studies

Our light fills your darkness.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Either you're being unclear, or contradictory.

Then maybe this is clear enough:

No means no.

We need not justify ourselves any more than the cougar needs justify itself to the wilderness.

[Mars Healey]

So what have you contributed to fencing studies

Our light fills your darkness.

I am just a student of WMA. I've been practicing for only two years. I have neither written any scholarly essays nor published any translations. I commend you for doing so. I have obviously over-reacted to the theme of this thread. For that, I apologize.

Someone asked what I considered a basic question on how to perform one of the Master Cuts. I'm surprised that it got so heated, my posts included.

I've always respected the work that ARMA has compiled and I'm grateful for the access to it.