About the Windshield Wiper Krumphau...

[ChristineChurches]

Gentlemen -

Please let's not turn this topic into a flame war. Most of us peruse this forum for information and intelligent discussion. If I'm not mistaken, the topic of this thread was the krumphau, not naming names in who's done what to whom. While I understand that the original question could not be answered to the satisfaction of most readers due to proprietary concerns, that does not mean that this thread should devolve into a discussion of the integrity and limitations of others who practice our martial art - IMHO this happens far too often both on our forum and others (and, no Alan I will not link you to specific examples of this happening - suffice to say that it happens often enough that if you look for it, it will find you).

Thank you.

[Stacy Clifford]

Okay, but that's only three, which makes them a rather tiny portion, of all the HEMA groups out there.
(I also note that all of them are americans)

I only cite three because I don't personally know the activities of every member in ARMA, and I can't remember everything everyone has ever said. I know my own experiences and those of my closer acquaintances, but ARMA has almost 500 members, mostly in America but also in other countries, and I can hardly keep up with them all. I can only ask them to chime in here with their own relevant experiences.

As for the ones I cited being Americans, well, I live in America and so do they, so it makes it a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to see them in person. The European researchers don't travel over here very often and most of us don't have the money to just hop across the pond whenever we feel like it to visit them. Believe me, if we could, we would, but don't disparage us for doing only what budget and availability allow. Axel recently expressed similar regrets that European events didn't have more American guests, so we share a common lament in that respect.

If you want examples of our encounters with Europeans though, I did forget to mention that John and Jonathan Waller and Keith Ducklin of the Royal Armouries at Leeds have been guest instructors at past ARMA events I and others here have attended, and Hans Heim and Alex Kiermayer (sp.?) of Ochs were guest instructors at the first ARMA International Gathering in 2003. Bart Walczak of ARMA Poland has been active in non-ARMA events in Europe before, and Gianluca Zanini and Matt Easton were both invited to our 2007 International Gathering but were unable to attend due to their jobs.

[Stacy Clifford]

Thank you Christine, you're right, this thread has drifted too far off topic and needs to be drawn to a close. Plenty of answers to Alan's questions can be found by careful searching of this forum without having to repeat things that have already been discussed many times in the past.

[david welch]

I've been told that the WW interpretation doesn't really have a practical use in serious combat or something along those lines.

What exactly is the difference in ARMA's interpretation of the Krumphau? I couldn't quite tell in the illustrations in the articles+essays section.

Thanks!

This isn't "ARMA'S" technique, but is something my group does.


It is just an example of how to do a quick one we like.

Stand in fool, short edge down. Snap up to long point short edge up, with hands crossed. Try to do it while lifting the point straight up and as little off your opponent as much as possible. If you follow the point it will look sort of like a question mark. This one is very fast and sneaky. Once you figure out the mechanics you can do it from plow, or ox, or...

Meyer says that any strike you do with crossed hands is basically a crooked strike. Pretty all you are seeing are different examples of that. It is just that some are going to be more usefull than others. At least until the other guy sees it a couple of times.

[CalebChow]

Stand in fool, short edge down. Snap up to long point short edge up, with hands crossed. Try to do it while lifting the point straight up and as little off your opponent as much as possible. If you follow the point it will look sort of like a question mark. This one is very fast and sneaky. Once you figure out the mechanics you can do it from plow, or ox, or...

Meyer says that any strike you do with crossed hands is basically a crooked strike. Pretty all you are seeing are different examples of that. It is just that some are going to be more usefull than others. At least until the other guy sees it a couple of times.

Heya, thanks! That's the kind of answer I was looking for

Seems like it contrasts with the WW interpretation in that it's meant to be a direct, vertical attack to the upper opening rather than a side deflection followed by a short edge strike. My impression was that the WW interpretation is like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YQP6lthpLA&mode=related&search=
at 1:30

Hmm, I find that Meyer's illustration was kind of misleading, which may be part of the reason for the WW interpretation, since it looks like the strike is very "undirected" toward the opponent, making it look like a counterattack move:
http://www.schielhau.org/Meyer.p8.html
(Illustration D, upper right hand figures)

Unless once again, I noobed it up. (Unless there's some ARMA branch in the central pennsylvania area in the US I'm stuck with my own limited self-study...) Anyone and everyone, PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.

Here we go, the "Question mark krumphau" vs the "windshield wiper krumphau"! Yay!

[david welch]

I would guess the big WW that people do comes from Goliath, but when this interpretation came about, and this is the way a lot of people still seem to do it, there was a lack of full understanding that some of the strikes were really to long point, so they kept cutting through (like a buffalo) instead of to the clash, so they missed the unwinding into the other guys face. Like I said though... that's just a guess.

Figure it a small, half WW with a wind at the bind and a thrust or cut to the face. That's what we do anyway, when we use this one.

Goliath:
You shall deploy this play against most binds with the sword, and drive it so: When you come to him in the pre-fencing, then lay your sword to your right side in the barrier guard and stand with the left foot forward, or hold it on the right shoulder, if he then strikes high to the opening, then strike strongly with the long edge to cross arms against his strike, and as soon as the swords clash together then immediately wind the short edge on his sword toward your left, and stab him in the face. Or if you will not stab him, then strike him immediately with the short edge, from the sword to the head or body.

[Mars Healey]

I was talking to my teacher last night about the windshield wiper and he mentioned Dobringer's Peacock technique. Since they didn't have windshield wipers back then, they used a different descriptor. I know the Peacock was also used by two-handers to shear pike tips, sweeping back and forth.

Dobringer:

48V

One technique is called the fence guard (or barrier guard perhaps) [Schrankhute] and it comes from the point. You should place your point towards the ground on either side and then you are ready to displace. It can also be called from the gate [Pforten], when you place the point to the ground in front of you. When the opponent strikes or thrusts at you, then you push his point to the side as you raise the sword up and in towards you, and then strike him in the legs or above, whatever happens to be closest to hit. This resembles the peacock’s tail [Pfobenczangel] when you continuously go up and strike down, above or below wherever you can get at him.

[Nathan Dexter]

Good God... There cant be anything secret about the Krumphau. Here is the definition of the word:

"(“Crooked” or “Twisted Cut” or "Bend Strike") 1. A downwards curt with the false edge made with crossed or twisted wrists. 2. Any strike with crossed hands. One of the Meisterhau. The Krumphau may be delivered with a slicing or pulling action by the back edge of the blade while close-in and blades are crossed. The German system taught cuts in the opening phase of combat not to be made from the offside, so that the arms & wrists would not be twisted."

The fact that it is one of the "Meisterhau" implies that any description of it in a historical text is vague at best. And the idea that people are keeping secrets is absurd. Its not like guys at the top have "magic crystal balls" that let them know the exact tecnique. It sounds to me like it is more of a draw cut with the false edge against an opponents back. (this would probably be very painful)

[Randall Pleasant]

I know that Randall has been to seminars held by Brian Price and Tom Leoni in the last couple of years, and he and I both have attended Bob Charron's seminars before, although it was about five years ago.

Actually I have never had a class with either Brian Price or Tom Leoni. However, I have attended a class with Robert Holland that was held by Brain Price. Along with two other ARMA members I attended the 2006 WMAW event that was held by Brian Price. At that WMAW event I attended classes by Rob Lovett, Christian Tobler, Sean Hays, Robert Holland, and Pete Kautz. I also observed classes by Guy Windsor and others. I also got to watch a lot of people spar during the event.

Point is, ARMA members are not barred from seeing what other researchers are releasing to the public, and by the same token they are not barred from our public events and publications either. Our encounters with outside groups may not always be frequent, but we are not by any means isolationist.

I always find it very silly when people suggest that ARMA members are isolated. Given the size of ARMA it is safe to say that we represent a very large section of the WMA community, especially when you exclude the stage actors, re-enactors, and LARPs. The truth is some people have isolated themselves from ARMA and that is one of the major reasons why they lag behind ARMA.