Videos of my part in a sparring competition

[Lance Chan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vQAJNG8V74

I was invited as a guest competitor in a free style sparring competition hosted by a local sword forum. We agreed that I would only spar in the first division to give the newcomers more chance to win the game. It was the first time I sparred in a competition environment. I had been doing free sparring for very long time, in friendly practice mostly, and on a few occasions doing a duel. However, relying on judges to say what's a valid hit and what's not was a new experience to me. So I have to hit harder and become more obvious in my attacks so that the judges could detect my hits easier. There were six division bouts. They came up with "survival rate" to decide who would proceed to the next divison. I won the division I was in at 76% survival rate, the highest of the day. My opponent's arsenal included Chinese single handed jian, double handed jian, twin katana and a basket-hilt + buckler. It was not the easiest environment for a single longsword to survive.

From the semi-final on to the final bout, it was 1 hit-kill mode where the winner was decided by a single valid hit (disabling / killing). The final fight lasted around 3 mins with both parties, 1 using a single handed Chinese Jian and the other wielding 2 Japanese katateuchi, taking many glancing slices and thrusts without a decisive hit. At last the one with twin swords hit the guy with jian at the head with a killing blow and won the prize.

A student from Australia Stoccata school, Clinton, who studies German longsword under Andrew Brew also got to the semi final with a single longsword against all odds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18XhBm-LOhs

After the division sparring, I asked my kendo friend to spar with me, who took up a chinese two handed jian instead of katana. Next, I joined up a queue where I could do some sparring with another esteemed kendoka (the same guy who was wielding twin katana in the division sparring) who was wielding a single katana this time. In these unofficial bouts I switched back to my normal mode because of the lack of need to let judges to acknowledge my hits.

[Sripol Asanasavest]

That looks awesome! Have you ever fight against other world renound sword fighter...a really talented people? Or are you just amateur? Anyway, it really looks interesting. I am thinking of joining ARMA and learn myself some Krabi Krabong, also.

Have you ever tried fighting with Muay Thai fighter without weapons? Have you tried fighting against Krabi Krabong with two swords? The reason I ask is because I wonder how Krabi Krabong stands up to other martial arts.

[Lance Chan]

I sparred against various martial artists from around the world, ranging from amateur to championship to instructor grade. The best answer to your question is to look up for a fellow ARMA member and spar with them with your style in question.

That looks awesome! Have you ever fight against other world renound sword fighter...a really talented people? Or are you just amateur? Anyway, it really looks interesting. I am thinking of joining ARMA and learn myself some Krabi Krabong, also.

Have you ever tried fighting with Muay Thai fighter without weapons? Have you tried fighting against Krabi Krabong with two swords? The reason I ask is because I wonder how Krabi Krabong stands up to other martial arts.

[Eric Chisler]

I just looked at the link for sparring weapons in your signature, Lance. I must say they look rather impressive, but I'm sincerely wondering why I've never heard them mentioned on the Forum before. Could you tell us a bit more about them?

-Eric

P.S. Wow! That's cheap!

[Jeffrey Hull]

Cool, LC

You made an interesting point

It was the first time I sparred in a competition environment. I had been doing free sparring for very long time, in friendly practice mostly, and on a few occasions doing a duel. However, relying on judges to say what's a valid hit and what's not was a new experience to me. So I have to hit harder and become more obvious in my attacks so that the judges could detect my hits easier.

In the past I tried to convey that same idea about misperception by tourney-judges at another (hostile) forum, and the so-called experts there did not get it. You are correct to point out that issue.

Good luck in your continued training.

[Lance Chan]

That's because I try to refrain promotion of my product on the forum and concentrate on techniques discussion. The sparring weapons are made to real sword weight and balance. They are made of plastic core + metal reinforcement + foam and fabric. We put baby oil on the swords before sparring so that they can bind and wind pretty good too. For example, I executed a duplieren (sp?) in one of the division round and thrust at the neck of my opponent. Check 07:51.

I just looked at the link for sparring weapons in your signature, Lance. I must say they look rather impressive, but I'm sincerely wondering why I've never heard them mentioned on the Forum before. Could you tell us a bit more about them?

-Eric

P.S. Wow! That's cheap!

[Lance Chan]

Thanks a lot. I agree the distortion was pretty serious. In the after-action debriefing everyone was talking about the hits that didn't happened but the judges registered, and the hits that happened but with no judges raising the flags.

I think the honor system that we have been using all along the time with the guy who get hit telling others where he had been hit, was the best system so far. Added with a camera with slow playback, it worked even in a challenge/duel.

The competition was the worst distortion in my opinion among the three types of sparring (friendly, duel and competition) I've been doing. Hhehe

Cool, LC

You made an interesting point

It was the first time I sparred in a competition environment. I had been doing free sparring for very long time, in friendly practice mostly, and on a few occasions doing a duel. However, relying on judges to say what's a valid hit and what's not was a new experience to me. So I have to hit harder and become more obvious in my attacks so that the judges could detect my hits easier.

In the past I tried to convey that same idea about misperception by tourney-judges at another (hostile) forum, and the so-called experts there did not get it. You are correct to point out that issue.

Good luck in your continued training.

[Jeffrey Hull]

Thanks a lot. I agree the distortion was pretty serious. In the after-action debriefing everyone was talking about the hits that didn't happened but the judges registered, and the hits that happened but with no judges raising the flags.

I think the honor system that we have been using all along the time with the guy who get hit telling others where he had been hit, was the best system so far. Added with a camera with slow playback, it worked even in a challenge/duel.

The competition was the worst distortion in my opinion among the three types of sparring (friendly, duel and competition) I've been doing. Hhehe

Thanks for the elaboration, LC. Yes, what you state is exactly the sort of thing that the "experts" at another (hostile) forum were dismissing so belligerently.

That probably had to do with their implied assertion that they were the most fit judges to come up with some sort of tourney-rules. (Frankly, it was apalling how they were basically insisting that they were capable of flawlessly judging every strike in a contest.) However, this idea that tourney-judges are infalliable is just wrong. They cannot see and know the reality of every strike in a non-lethal contest. It just is not possible, they are not omniscient. (Hence the honor-system you described was a good thing to have in the contests as a check.)

There is also the very real & related concern for whether certain individuals deserve to judge others in a contest, especially if the contestants happen to be more martially capable than the judges. I think that was one of the concerns that the late Bruce Lee had regarding the validity of martial arts tourneys.

Anyway, I applaude you again LC, for your audacity & achievement in contesting with other fencers at that event. Bravo!

[Lance Chan]

It is somehow related to the fundamental difference between martial arts and choreographed combat for stage and movie play. The best practical moves were often unpredictable and perhaps even invisible to the target, so that it could be delivered successfully. However, such moves would be very hard to detect to the untrained audiences. Thus the need for choreographed and exaggerated actions in stage/movie combat.

Sparring in the tourney was somehow similar to performing a stage/video fight for the judges to me. The audience at the event said I fought with a style much "cooler" than I usually did at the weekly sparring practice. The reason was that I understood when I tried to pose "cooler" in the tourney, the more likely I was going to be detected as a victor. LOL.... and it worked! Such was usually quite the reverse in the other sparring environment. We have had many newcomers who tried to pose nice in the weekly sparring event and turned out "dead" after the very first strike.

In the second part of the video, I think it was noticeable that my performance was better than I did in the tourney to the trained eyes. It was more refined and less suicidal, due to the fact that I reverted back to the most effective method by hiding useless movements and applying delicate strikes (such as some master strikes).

Thanks a lot. I agree the distortion was pretty serious. In the after-action debriefing everyone was talking about the hits that didn't happened but the judges registered, and the hits that happened but with no judges raising the flags.

I think the honor system that we have been using all along the time with the guy who get hit telling others where he had been hit, was the best system so far. Added with a camera with slow playback, it worked even in a challenge/duel.

The competition was the worst distortion in my opinion among the three types of sparring (friendly, duel and competition) I've been doing. Hhehe

Thanks for the elaboration, LC. Yes, what you state is exactly the sort of thing that the "experts" at another (hostile) forum were dismissing so belligerently.

That probably had to do with their implied assertion that they were the most fit judges to come up with some sort of tourney-rules. (Frankly, it was apalling how they were basically insisting that they were capable of flawlessly judging every strike in a contest.) However, this idea that tourney-judges are infalliable is just wrong. They cannot see and know the reality of every strike in a non-lethal contest. It just is not possible, they are not omniscient. (Hence the honor-system you described was a good thing to have in the contests as a check.)

There is also the very real & related concern for whether certain individuals deserve to judge others in a contest, especially if the contestants happen to be more martially capable than the judges. I think that was one of the concerns that the late Bruce Lee had regarding the validity of martial arts tourneys.

Anyway, I applaude you again LC, for your audacity & achievement in contesting with other fencers at that event. Bravo!

[Jeffrey Hull]

It is somehow related to the fundamental difference between martial arts and choreographed combat for stage and movie play. The best practical moves were often unpredictable and perhaps even invisible to the target, so that it could be delivered successfully. However, such moves would be very hard to detect to the untrained audiences. Thus the need for choreographed and exaggerated actions in stage/movie combat.

Sparring in the tourney was somehow similar to performing a stage/video fight for the judges to me. The audience at the event said I fought with a style much "cooler" than I usually did at the weekly sparring practice. The reason was that I understood when I tried to pose "cooler" in the tourney, the more likely I was going to be detected as a victor. LOL.... and it worked! Such was usually quite the reverse in the other sparring environment. We have had many newcomers who tried to pose nice in the weekly sparring event and turned out "dead" after the very first strike.

In the second part of the video, I think it was noticeable that my performance was better than I did in the tourney to the trained eyes. It was more refined and less suicidal, due to the fact that I reverted back to the most effective method by hiding useless movements and applying delicate strikes (such as some master strikes).

Right on man, very well put, some revealing commentary about martiality / reality versus "tournamentality" in regards to fencing. Thanks again.

[Brent Lambell]

Thank you Mr Chan for posting those videos. I am always very appreciative for those confident enough in their martial prowess or technologically savvy enough to post videos on the internet.

I wanted to offer a thought on how we handle hits in our free play. When I watch most historical fencing online, I see a lot of sword tag where a touch of the blade is a valid hit and it the bout restarts. Its a dangerous habit to train ourselves to stop and rest every time we score what feels like a solid hit. Some real world opponents would not go down from one strike no matter how strong we felt it connected.

So we play to a three hit combination. We feel in our study group that if we train to fight until we land three solid blows in somewhat close succession, we are headed in the right direction. Does anyone else have similar rules? Has anyone had any problems with guidelines like these?

I think ultimately fighting to exhaustion is the best way to train, but its not always realistic.

[Jeffrey Hull]

I wanted to offer a thought on how we handle hits in our free play. When I watch most historical fencing online, I see a lot of sword tag where a touch of the blade is a valid hit and it the bout restarts. Its a dangerous habit to train ourselves to stop and rest every time we score what feels like a solid hit. Some real world opponents would not go down from one strike no matter how strong we felt it connected.

So we play to a three hit combination. We feel in our study group that if we train to fight until we land three solid blows in somewhat close succession, we are headed in the right direction

That is a very good point

[Jaron Bernstein]

Thank you Mr Chan for posting those videos. I am always very appreciative for those confident enough in their martial prowess or technologically savvy enough to post videos on the internet.

I wanted to offer a thought on how we handle hits in our free play. When I watch most historical fencing online, I see a lot of sword tag where a touch of the blade is a valid hit and it the bout restarts. Its a dangerous habit to train ourselves to stop and rest every time we score what feels like a solid hit. Some real world opponents would not go down from one strike no matter how strong we felt it connected.

So we play to a three hit combination. We feel in our study group that if we train to fight until we land three solid blows in somewhat close succession, we are headed in the right direction. Does anyone else have similar rules? Has anyone had any problems with guidelines like these?

I think ultimately fighting to exhaustion is the best way to train, but its not always realistic.

That raises an interesting question. Our evidence for the lethality of a single sword cut or thrust is (at least until John C.'s book comes out ) is in some manuals and duelling accounts. Silver talks about rapier fight wounds. We have some tales of how judicial duels transpired. We have a great deal of modern knife attacks on video even where a subject is stabbed or slashed multiple times and keeps going. There are also knife attacks where one stab is all it takes. You don't know how a given wound will effect a person on a given day, so how do you structure your sparring to take that into consideration? To break contact with a solid cut/stab is one way, but it doesn't account for the possiblity that the guy may keep going at least long enough to land his own hit. OTOH, teaching yourself to "ignore" what would be a decent wound (if it were a real fight) puts artificialities into the mix. How long can your fight without a hand? Maybe allow for both methods with prior arrangement?

[Brent Lambell]

Within our study group, we have admitted that no system we can come up with will be 100% accurate for all potential encounters. So we have tried to focus on what we can and what we see as the most vital for training to our goals.

One solid hit can kill a man, no doubt. Three might not be enough, no doubt. We chose three arbitrarily. Sometimes we might get get four hits in, sometimes we break at two. Again, I think the best way to do it is fight to exhaustion without breaking for any hits, there is an endurance conditioning benefit there and it take away arbitrary rules designed for safety, something we care little about on the field of battle.

[Stacy Clifford]

Although it is true that one hit may not be enough to stop a fight in some cases, one thing it is important to remember is that sparring is a learning tool. If you stop at one solid hit, your brain has a moment to analyze the situation and ask "what did I do that allowed me to hit successfully?" or "how did he get through my defense and hit me?" If you keep going through three or four hits, it's more difficult to keep track of what happened and learn from it. If you do it that way all the time then I think you lose some of the learning value of sparring, though that doesn't negate the benefits of your approach. There are lots of ways to go about freeplay with intent and I think the best thing to do is mix it up and not take the same approach all the time.