Calling any samurai?

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John_Clements
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Calling any samurai?

Postby John_Clements » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:03 pm

A television crew in NYC is trying to arrange a public duel next month for a special network program between a practitioner of traditional Japanese swordsmanship and a modern student of knightly European swordsmanship. The sparring match will take place outside (on stone flooring) with each combatant in their respective contemporary 15th century style historical armor reproduction and using accurate blunt steel reproductions of their respective double-handed blades. Single sword to single sword, on foot, with grappling and thrusting permitted in the bout.

The request is for someone fitting the build of both historical fighters (in others words, no 6’5” samurai using an extra-long Westernized katana). Needless to say, they already have their representative knight ready and waiting. Unfortunately, of all the schools of Japanese sword arts on the East Coast and West coast which they have made the invitation to, every one of them has declined to participate under the conditions offered --- saying that they would be willing to perform displays and demonstrate techniques, but don’t want to be filmed sparring an armored knight with his longsword in any mock combat (!). …Interesting.

So, I’ve been asked to help out by providing here just the above information to get the word out: if you know of a reputable instructor or expert practitioner of a traditional ryuha in North America that trains in armored kenjutsu --- not sport kendo, not Iaido ballet, not costumed stunt fencing reenactment, please post a reply here or email me. This is all the information I can provide on this.

Thanks.

John C.
ARMA Director

ps
Please do not turn this thread into a theoretical discussion of knights vs samurai or argue advocacy of one style of arms over another. This is a serious request with limited time to set up.
Last edited by John_Clements on Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben Michels
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Postby Ben Michels » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:24 pm

I would just like to add: Awesome!!

This would be fun to watch. =)

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Mark Driggs
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Postby Mark Driggs » Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:58 am

If they have trouble finding a willing EMA participant, I think it would be a good idea to turn it into a friendly competition amongst Western Martial Artists. That is something I would be much more interested in personally.

Lance Chan
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Postby Lance Chan » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:39 am

Now I've to stay tuned! :D
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Michael Navas
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Postby Michael Navas » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:00 pm

Are we sure this isn't an April's Fool joke? I know JC's post was made on the 31. but with the time zones that might still have been April 1st where he lives.

Jay Vail
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Postby Jay Vail » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:29 am

It's going to be hard to find somebody in the US who practices kenjutsu in armor. Only a tiny tiny few in the whole world do that.

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John_Clements
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Postby John_Clements » Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:36 pm

No joke.
This is entirely serious.
We've already met with the TV crew and they have already interviewed one professor of Japanese history.
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Derek Gulas
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Postby Derek Gulas » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:55 pm

John_Clements wrote:No joke.
This is entirely serious.
We've already met with the TV crew and they have already interviewed one professor of Japanese history.


Is there a possibility that if there is a lack of trained and Kenjutsu practitioners in the US, that you could go to Japan to find one? Something tells me that they might actually be more willing.
Close combat - bringing us together.

Derek
ARMA, Seattle

Henri de La Garde
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Postby Henri de La Garde » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:27 pm

As a practitioner of both WMA and JSA here in Japan, I think you will have a very difficult time attracting the attention of any JSA practitioners of the type you have currently mentioned.
I understand that JSA practitioners of Koryu styles do have somewhat of a snobbish reputation, and I certainly would not wish to add to this. But let me outline some of the difficulties I foresee.
First, Japanese classical sword traditions, or Koryu, are not about practical use of the sword. Period. I know this might come as a bit of a shock, but practitioners of these traditions, far from being snobs, feel somewhat misunderstood. None of them are interested in achieving practical skill with the use of the katana, simply because they are focused on preserving the traditions they represent. Most of them will focus more intensely on following the instructions of their school than they will on what they personally deem as 'practical' or 'combatively effective'. For better or worse, most Koryu practitioners, Japanese or Western, see themselves as lucky enough to receive training in an art which has been far better represented by others throughout time than themselves. Out of deference and modesty, as well as respect for their teachers, the people who would be most interesting to see in such a cross-training experience are those least likely to participate in it.
Secondly, it is extremely rare to find anyone, Japanese or otherwise, who trains even semi-regularly in a style which includes armored techniques with the sword or other weapons. Some rather rare styles use armor with grappling techniques, to preserve those basic elements of grappling in armor in the specific cultural and historical context.
Thirdly, most training in Koryu styles, though not all, is devoid of freeplay. This does vary from school to school, however, the normal expectation is that Koryu stylists do not engage in competition. Risuke Otake, current headmaster of Japan's oldest school, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, was asked in the late 1940s to have a bout with a Kendo practitioner. At the time, the government was investigating Katori Shinto Ryu to see if it should be declared an 'Intangible Cultural Asset,' a distinction it subsequently received and holds to this day. Otake promptly agreed to fight the Kendo man, adding only that it would be a fight to the death. The shocked government representatives asked him what he meant - even at this time, the Japanese had spent so much time with the more popular, competitive sport forms like Kendo that they knew far too little of their own, far-older traditions - and Otake responded by explaining that his art was the real thing, not a mere competitive sport.
I believe this attitude still permeates the schools which would actually be worth cross-training with, and is used as a shallow defense by the other schools which are not worth cross-training with.
My suggestion, should one be interested in trying some friendly bouting with an experienced practitioner of a Japanese style, is that you take the long term approach. First, try to meet some of these senior Western practitioners, either in Japan, or more difficultly, in the United States. Build a friendly rapport, by discussing commonalities in your arts. After a 'courtship' of sorts, move your relationship on to the next level, and propose some sort of cross-training session so that you can each experience a taste of each other's arts. If this works well, after several repetitions, then propose the idea of the camera. Koryu people are very decent, very friendly, and in my limited personal experience, not at all a snobby lot. However, like all endangered species, they are a skittish bunch, distrustful of outsiders and really scared that something they do might sully the ancient reputation of what their teachers have carefully preserved and generously passed on to them. So tread lightly, for best results. (Please feel free to PM me if you want more free advice on this, just remember, free advice is always worth exactly what you pay for it, of course!).
I would be fascinated to see what this project could come up with. Good luck, and best wishes for your training everyone!

Henri de La Garde
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Postby Henri de La Garde » Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:36 pm

For more information on Tenshin Katori Shinto Ryu, the school I mentioned above, please watch the BBC Documentary 'The Way of the Warrior', on YouTube in four parts at this location:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HR7TTOReE

There are a certain number of individuals across the United States who claim to represent Katori Shinto Ryu, though this is disputed by the school's legitimate headmaster in a somewhat unpleasant dispute. The only authorized representatives of the style can be found through this website:

http://www.tenshinsho-den-katori-shinto-ryu.org/

For any inquiries about legitimate styles of Japanese Koryu, in Japan or elsewhere, I have found this site to be very reliable if one is confined to English:

http://www.koryu.com/

Good luck!

Margaret Lo
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Looked pretty practical to me!

Postby Margaret Lo » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:49 pm

Henri de La Garde wrote: I understand that JSA practitioners of Koryu styles do have somewhat of a snobbish reputation, and I certainly would not wish to add to this. But let me outline some of the difficulties I foresee.
First, Japanese classical sword traditions, or Koryu, are not about practical use of the sword. Period. I!


Mr.de La Garde
I do not understand what you mean by this statement that classical sword traditions are not about practical use of the sword!? My visit to the yagyu shinkage ryu school in lower manhattan showed me detailed and practical technique.

Youtube has a dynamic example of yagyu shingan ryu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7seU0jNQ ... re=related

The oldman really is like yoda.

I do agree that it is unlikely that a member of a true koryu would participate in this type of stunt. Probably that their soke would find it unseemly given their aristocratic traditions. Though things may be slowly changing. I found all 3 sets of kata of hontai yoshin ryu on youtube recently . The secrecy seems to be declining.

To put things into perspective, if a medieval western knightly tradition still survives, would such a tradition actually allow a true knight to participate in a B movie? Perhaps not!

I think that since historical authenticity is important to all of us interested in arts so ancient, it is important to recognize that the "snobbishness" of koryu is not some kind of shallow disdain, but adherence to a way of thinking continued from societies much more hierarchical than modern societies. That discipline should be respected and not dismissed as mere snobbery.
M

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RayMcCullough
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Postby RayMcCullough » Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:33 am

"I think that since historical authenticity is important to all of us interested in arts so ancient, it is important to recognize that the "snobbishness" of koryu is not some kind of shallow disdain, but adherence to a way of thinking continued from societies much more hierarchical than modern societies. That discipline should be respected and not dismissed as mere snobbery. "

Would a JSA pratitioner of the past turn down an honest sparring match?
Would he be seen as a snob or a coward for refusing in the past?
What discipline are you refering to?
This would exhibit his Martial Discipline since Martial Arts are about fighting. I don't understand this concept of not sparring that is so prevalent in so many "Martial Arts" schools(Western and Eastern). and no, sparring is not a competition. Martial Artist and martial Arts in the past sparred with no rules. What has changed and why should it be different today.

"I do agree that it is unlikely that a member of a true koryu would participate "

That is my point. Can they be practicing true Koryu if they do not spar.

Could someone claiming to be a Martial Artist be convicted in a court of law of being one if evidence was presented that proved he doesn't fight/spar?

Let's not take the Martial(of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior) out of the Art(skills aquired by experience, study, and observation: a branch of learning)

I hope someone will step up and represent True Budo.
"The Lord is my strenght and my shield, my heart trusteth in Him and I am helped..." Psalms 28:7

"All fencing is done with the aid of God." Doebringer 1389 A.D.

Margaret Lo
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How is a movie appearance "honest sparring"?

Postby Margaret Lo » Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:16 am

RayMcCullough wrote:
Would a JSA pratitioner of the past turn down an honest sparring match?
Would he be seen as a snob or a coward for refusing in the past?
What discipline are you refering to?
This would exhibit his Martial Discipline since Martial Arts are about fighting. I don't understand this concept of not sparring that is so prevalent in so many "Martial Arts" schools(Western and Eastern). and no, sparring is not a competition. Martial Artist and martial Arts in the past sparred with no rules. What has changed and why should it be different today.

"I do agree that it is unlikely that a member of a true koryu would participate "

That is my point. Can they be practicing true Koryu if they do not spar.

Could someone claiming to be a Martial Artist be convicted in a court of law of being one if evidence was presented that proved he doesn't fight/spar?

Let's not take the Martial(of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior) out of the Art(skills aquired by experience, study, and observation: a branch of learning)

I hope someone will step up and represent True Budo.


Who said they don't spar? Just look at the you tube link I provided. Most are vids of kata, but in fact they do freeplay with bamboo weapons. With any luck, I'll get to do it this summer. Also, an instructor varies kata so that a sequence is predictable up to a point, then - surprise! so the kata does not deaden.

But I would not call a bout staged with a knight in plate armour "true" in any sense of the word! As to your definition of "true martial arts" requiring sparring, you narrow the meaning too much. Tai chi is considered a martial art even if a practitioner never spars. So is qi gong and other esoteric practices because these arts are part of a larger world of the martial arts - which once included religion and magic. So to narrow the definition of martial arts to: true equals free sparring, therefore no free sparring equals untrue is, I think to impoverish the martial arts. The term "budo" btw, also include karate, aikido, judo as well as the classical arts.

While I cannot claim to represent a "true budo" by which I think you mean a koryu, here is one affiliation: hontai yoshin ryu. Go to koryu.com and check ryu lists. I am just a student, to represent the ryuha, I think I would have to be more than a student but a licensed instructor. In Japan, I understand, there are plenty of actors with budo background, so there is not necessarily a bias against film appearances so maybe this film is what they object to?

Finally, as to the knight in plate armour, I think the appropriate weapon against him would be the naginata and not a katana. Historically, I understand the Japanese elite loved western plate armour, having no accesss to the high quality steel in quantity necessary for that kind of craft.

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Vincent Le Chevalier
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Postby Vincent Le Chevalier » Mon Apr 07, 2008 1:56 pm

RayMcCullough wrote:I don't understand this concept of not sparring that is so prevalent in so many "Martial Arts" schools(Western and Eastern). and no, sparring is not a competition. Martial Artist and martial Arts in the past sparred with no rules. What has changed and why should it be different today.


In fact I'd really like to see the historical evidence, either western or eastern, for free play "with no rules" (which I take to mean "no explicit rules") in weapon-based martial arts.

I've heard of duels of course, fights with bokens in Japan, inter-school scuffles all over the place, these guys fought, there is no question about that. But all of these are more fights than sparring sessions, there is a very high risk of injury and a will of inflicting it. But within the curriculum, between members of the school?

All the examples I've found so far show pretty limiting rules on targets or timing. Or unrealistic weapons. Sometimes all together :) If proposed in a modern context I'm pretty sure they'd be disregarded by the ARMA. So surely there are more?

As to the "match" discussed, I really don't see the purpose except trying to show off at the expense of the other culture. I don't think either participant will learn anything from that, but it will lead to plenty of biased generalizations from the less informed viewers. I can't blame the kenjutsu practitioners that don't want to take part in this. If freeplay there must be, I'd prefer two matches, one with two "knights", one with two "samurais"...

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Mike Cartier
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Postby Mike Cartier » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:37 pm

I've heard of duels of course, fights with bokens in Japan, inter-school scuffles all over the place, these guys fought, there is no question about that. But all of these are more fights than sparring sessions, there is a very high risk of injury and a will of inflicting it. But within the curriculum, between members of the school? .


you seem to have a strange distinction between sparring and fighting.
Why does it surprise you that men who might be called on to use thier sword arts in defense of thier lives might actually wish to test thier skills before being put into combat.

One thing is for sure, i have yet to see a martial art which does not spar which has any fighting skill, we cannot develop true fighting skills in a vaccuum that contains no method of testing. Fighting is chaos so we must get as close to it as possible to get true skills
Last edited by Mike Cartier on Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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