Testing SCA Stikes on Tatami Mats and Unrestricted Combat.

[Randall Pleasant]

The purpose of this topic is not intended to argue that SCA fighting is historical... it is intended to demonstrate that it is functional. From that point it may be argued that ancient and medieval people were just as smart and crafty as we are today and likely would have thought of and used a sword in any way that works.

Bill

You are right that the intent of this thread was not have been to argue SCA fighting is historical. However, my reply was in regard to a specific post that did directly suggest that the Wrap Shot might have historical roots. And I argued that the Wrap Shot is not historical. As I noted in a related thread on another forum, taking two similar things from different places in time and space and suggesting that they are the same thing is a classic research problem in Anthropology and Archaeology (see Lewis Binford's writings on the use of analogies).

[Bill Tsafa]

If there is one thing that both I and many other people in the SCA appreciate and respect... is keeping separate and distinct what is recorded in historical texts vs what is not. For one thing... it gives us a point of reference.

[Mike Cartier]

i htink i know the strike jaron is referring too but like he said itrs very very very different than the SCA WRAPS shot
which in my mind is utterly useless and is not even seen in stick fighting

I thought both the sword and board guy and the longsword guy looked very timid and hesitant as well as unskilled, noone seemed to want the Vor

[Bill Tsafa]

i htink i know the strike jaron is referring too but like he said itrs very very very different than the SCA WRAPS shot
which in my mind is utterly useless and is not even seen in stick fighting

I thought both the sword and board guy and the longsword guy looked very timid and hesitant as well as unskilled, noone seemed to want the Vor

Might he be talking about a half-wrap...? That is a wrap that is made with the sword extended. It is usually used to just get the sword tip around the edge of the shield or a parrying weapon from maximum range. It is also known as a thumb-leader or a J-hook. It is the same concept of throwing the sword out and using centripetal force to make the sword swing back the other way when it has nowhere else to go.

[Adam Bodorics]

"Shield guy" doesn't really use his shield. I bruised several and broke two wrists, bruised countless thighs, almost broke a knee, almost crushed a windpipe, bruised heads and so on even as I don't really like the shield. I missed aggressive durchlaufen. I was surprised at the leg hits - oberlauffen protects against them perfectly unless the LS is much longer.
"Longsword guy" isn't aggressive enough. With a longsword, you mustn't ever let the shield dominate the fight... I missed my favourite technique, pinning the shield guy's sword to the edge of the shield while thrusting him in the face, even as there were chances to do this. (absetzen against a right ober- or mittelhau or thrust from left Pflugh to right Ochs) Guard transitioning OK, but WHY??? I fail to see the advantage he got by transitioning.
Both: I didn't see the intent to get and/or retain the Vor. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to dominate the fight by forcing my opponent to react, and possible reactions to a certain attack are limited in number.

[Sam Nankivell]

Bill- no... you are missing the most basic point, the point that colors everything you have done in this presentation:

"assuming blossfechten"= then wearing the gear..you guys don't get it, does not matter if you wear only one elbow pad, just because you have the elbow pad on, you move and strike diffrently then if you did not have it on.

That's your first mistake then there's a bunch more but this one here is the main problem with your work..you do not understand or account for this issue..

It's a simple concept but when you take that idea then extrapolate that out throught the whole process it colors everything.

What about the fencing masks that are commonly used? Does such use make our interpretations flawed because the head happens to be larger and easier to hit in sparring? Not to mention the fact that you have a limited field of view and limited neck movement.

I agree that you might move slightly differently, but definitely nothing so drastic as to completely change the art. If these arts are as flexible as they should be (I don't see most Medieval or Renaissance martial arts), I would think that minor variations would be irrelevant. However, if enough of these small factors come together, they can become a large enough factor to drastically change an interpretation.

That being said, assuming the armour being worn allows for a fairly complete range of motion for most necessary movements (give or take a couple of degrees), I would think it shouldn't matter. To say that it completely invalidates in interpretation is taking it a bit far.

Also, for others interested in this thread, I would suggest also looking at the threads under the same name on MyArmoury and Swordforum for some more on this topic.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Yes Sam, the mask does change things as well, that is why in ARMA we freeplay quite often without masks.

The range of motion issues etc are not the problem, the base feeling of being "unprotected" and not actually having protection on in and of itself changes the way you approach the fight, and changes the way your partner spars you.

It's like this, if you have ever played paintball you have to wear eyeprotection, but that's it...so there are some guys out there who just wear the minimum, and when they play they know that getting hit hurts, so they are more careful when they play...there are other guys that pad themselves to the nines, and when they play they stalk around like the terminator and even when they do get hit, they will not stop right away and it takes a ref to make them stop.

That's just a side analogy, but it demos what I mean..it has nothing to do with the mechanics of how you fight, though that can be problematic, it has to do with the mindset of the fighters.

Now, there is no way nowadays that we can take a sharp sword and fight another person with it...in such a way that we actually mean each other harm or death..that's obvious, so in many ways we will never know what fighting with a sword is like...but the least we can do is approach these sparring sessions with the smallest sense of responsibility in learning that they were dangerous affairs and not little tapping sessions wearing everything but the kitchen sink...

man, I have seen some SCA guys wearing more armor than I wear in a SWAT callout, to even call those sessions, "duels", "sparring", or "combats" or "fights" is a silly joke- come on now people-seriously!!

[Bill Tsafa]

The flip side of the coin is when you are wearing no armor, and no fencing mask especially, is that all the blows to the head must be pulled short and you can only have touch hits to the body. That gets into other problems when the blade makes contact but the person making it was pushed off balance to the point that it would have been impossible to make a meaningful strike. With minimal armor and headprotection, cuts attempted from awkward positions are more evident because they feel like nothing when they land.

There is also a mater that you fight like you train. If you always pull you cuts short or do touch kills, that is what you will learn to do.

[Sal Bertucci]

In a sparring match with a correctly padded weapon, that is also the right weight and balance, there is no reason to pull any strike.

As for the training methods, that is why it is important to train in a variety of ways and with different tools.

[Bill Tsafa]

We had padded weapons on hand. Adam did not want to use them because he felt it would take more away from the realism then the minimal armor would. Some compromise has to be made somewhere between realism and safety.

I agree 100% in training a variety ways balancing safety and realism so that the shortcomings of one system are made up in another.

[Randall Pleasant]

...you can only have touch hits to the body.

Bill

In free play with blunt swords we make controlled hits. While these blows are not fully power, they are not touch hits. We do not play sword tag. It is not uncommon to have long blue marks across one's body after several rounds of free play.

[BRIAN.FELL]

Bill

I must agree with ran...

multiple times in free play with blunts I have left with large bruises and maybe a broken finger or two... Matt Brayant gave me a bloddy nose through a fencing mask with a straight trust. some blows will end up "touching" each other but then the technique of sclicing once the blade "touches" the body; this is to at least cause some or high level of damage to set up another full blow.


just my .02 cents

[Sam Nankivell]

Yes Sam, the mask does change things as well, that is why in ARMA we freeplay quite often without masks.

The range of motion issues etc are not the problem, the base feeling of being "unprotected" and not actually having protection on in and of itself changes the way you approach the fight, and changes the way your partner spars you.

It's like this, if you have ever played paintball you have to wear eyeprotection, but that's it...so there are some guys out there who just wear the minimum, and when they play they know that getting hit hurts, so they are more careful when they play...there are other guys that pad themselves to the nines, and when they play they stalk around like the terminator and even when they do get hit, they will not stop right away and it takes a ref to make them stop.

That's just a side analogy, but it demos what I mean..it has nothing to do with the mechanics of how you fight, though that can be problematic, it has to do with the mindset of the fighters.

Now, there is no way nowadays that we can take a sharp sword and fight another person with it...in such a way that we actually mean each other harm or death..that's obvious, so in many ways we will never know what fighting with a sword is like...but the least we can do is approach these sparring sessions with the smallest sense of responsibility in learning that they were dangerous affairs and not little tapping sessions wearing everything but the kitchen sink...

man, I have seen some SCA guys wearing more armor than I wear in a SWAT callout, to even call those sessions, "duels", "sparring", or "combats" or "fights" is a silly joke- come on now people-seriously!!

Hmm. You do have a very good point. Fear does certainly make you fight quite differently.

Actually, even pain isn't really necessary, just some serious consequence for losing. Perhaps a good way to simulate such a bout with this sort of fear AND at full speed/power would be to use padded weapons and masks but have the participants put up money on the match? It would certainly give them something to lose.

However, does this fear need to be in every method of assault? Sure, having a match worth something is great for seeing how people would really fight. But are those people likely to test new approaches and a wide range of techniques against their opponent? I would think that they would stick with a couple of techniques that they thought to be tried and true. (Which in turn wouldn't give a very good comparison of techniques between styles, just of which FIGHTER is better.)

Anyways, I think all that Bill was trying to prove was that we shouldn't necessarily discount SCA sword and shield moves just because they come from the SCA. Instead, we should test them in full target, minimum rules comparisons like this. I don't think he was trying to prove that SCA fighting was any "better" than WMA, just that it could be functional.

(PS: On a sidenote about pain, it would certainly be interesting if someone came up with a waster or blunt that had a mechanism similar to a shock knife? Perhaps that would be a good subject for a new thread .)

[Stewart Sackett]

To instill fear:

Have some mechanism for determining who "wins" & make mutual loss possible but no mutual wins. The loser has to do 100 burpees. This is particularly effective at the end of a long training session when everyone is tired already.

With larger groups this can also be done as a team event with the losing team having to do the burpees.

Obviously this is a different sort of fear then fear of a blade, but it's an effective and useful motivator none the less & helps to promote an aggressive "finishing" mindset.

[Aaron Pynenberg]

Shock longsword-! That's an idea, I am sure that would net the result we are after! I must say though with the intent we put into our freeplay and sparring we have plenty of built in fear factors.

Really though, these two components (freeplay,sparring), are just part of an overall training plan that includes other pieces as well..that's what sets ARMA apart, we have a set (but always evolving) training curriculla designed to holistically take several training methods and combine them to give you some semblence of what it may have been like.

There's all sorts of problems with each diffrent training tool, but as long as Scholars clearly understand how each tool and method influences them and how those influences effect performance, then the overall training value is built. There is not one set method or tool which is "best" it's the undertsanding of how and where those methods are weak which makes them so valueable.

What many SCA guys/gals do not still understand is that the simple ability to look at a training scenario and then identify the problems actually allows you to see it's strengths much clearer...if Bill had a toilet seat in his hand and was whacking his training partner with it repeatedly, the same effect would have been reached, in other words, what did either of them learn--really? that you can whack a guy from behind a shield..?

Duh, obviously, but his SCA style of "play" does not teach him about WMA or combat or duels or fighting...they are seperate animals than what he is capturing in this exercise, all the while believing he is doing what it is we do...nope sorry Bill, like I said I give you guys alot of credit for your effort, it's just been wasted in this regard.