Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effective?

[Chris Ouellet]

Great, we agree, no worries!
However as a side issue I'm still interested in this particular technique:

That's exactly what I'm talking about - on both forearms - it begins as a "block," followed with a fluid slice. And it's in the fechtbucher. Not a primary form of attack, to be sure, but it can be an effective one in Blossfechten.

Can you give me a clearer reference for this slice (webpage, page#)? Under the forearm you can't avoid the ulna and what limited damage you would do to the musculature that is available to be cut would not stop the blow.
I'm curious because my perspective is oriental (haidong gumdo) and I'm definitely not a HEMA expert. There is no corollary to my knowledge.
The range at which you would be able to slice both forearms with a modified block would be effectively grappling range, it sounds odd and difficult to execute. Do you have an example of this in sparring?

I've mentioned the English stuff a couple of times in this thread. From the Ledall: ...when yore enemy playeth a profer with a rake and begynnyth to pluke bake hys sworde to sete a quarter...

That clearly sounds like a stab turning into a slice, much like what I'm familiar, where is the part about slicing both arms?

[Chris Ouellet]

BTW, a nick or two in a sword will not effect it's slicing abillity against naked flesh at all. Just saying.

Agreed as well. When the nick hits bone however, the sword can stop entirely, I've actually had it happen in test slices (I own a badly damaged blade). I'm not making it up, and I'm quite strong. If your sword stops dead, I'm sure you'll agree, you might too. Again I plan on one day having videos.
If the slice begins close to the damaged area, it doesn't have enough speed to glide or skip off, it catches.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Can you give me a clearer reference for this slice (webpage, page#)? Under the forearm you can't avoid the ulna and what limited damage you would do to the musculature that is available to be cut would not stop the blow. I'm curious because my perspective is oriental (haidong gumdo) and I'm definitely not a HEMA expert. There is no corollary to my knowledge. The range at which you would be able to slice both forearms with a modified block would be effectively grappling range...

You're still not understanding me, Chris. You don't let the blow even begin. From binden (the "bind" - the moment of contact between weapons and the actual contact of two weapons. A bind or trapping action by pressing blade upon blade - as described here on this website's lexicon of historical terms), as the opponent raises his arms to prepare to attack or counter attack - you "remain" - that is you don't do likewise and "pluck" your sword back. Instead you follow him, stepping forward and slightly to his side, and press your edge horizontally, the point somewhat more forward than the rest, across both of his foreams, and vigorously slice as you step. You begin outside of grappling range, and as the slice is completed you are in grapplingg range. This is not uncommon in HEMA. FYI: a good technique to use after such an attack is to make him eat the pommel of your sword.

He doesn't get to execute a blow. That's precisely it. You don't let him. And if he does begin his strike, your blade is already firmly placed on his forearms. He doesn't have any leverage or momentum to make his blow viable, and his arms are pressing against your edge. His action is stifled. You are moving rapidly and forcefully forward, pressing in upon him as he is bringing weapon back to "prime" a cut. It is negated before it even gets a chance to enter into its power. Furthermore, because are stepping forward and to his side, you don't even need to have your blade braced fully against both of his forearms. If he manages to strike, it will not be powerful and it will not hit you. You aren't in the same place as you were when he "aimed" initially, and you have at least partial control of his swordarm\s, (the crossguard on a European longsword also helps this - A LOT - believe me...or not). I don't have a precise reference to give you, unfortunately. I have described it as best as I can.

...it sounds odd and difficult to execute.

Timing is everything. Being able to read your opponent is immensly valueable, as well. Part of this comes down to fuehlen, or "feeling." This was a German principle of swordsmanship. Basicly, at the bind you attempt to "feel" whether the opponent is "hard" in the bind - meaning resisting strongly, or "soft" in the bind - meaning resisting less strenuously. Now, if an opponent is "hard" or strong in the bind, then the German masters tell us to snap back our swords and strike for a different target \ opening. They say to do this, because you are resisting strenously and wuill therefore react more slowly to an abrupt breaking from the bind followed swiftly with an attack. You can turn the tables by NOT reacting the way the opponent expects, by "remaining" and folowing him, stiffling his blow before it comes to fruiton by placing your blade frimly across his forearms from below. Another option is to stab him in the face between his forearms, (a favorite of the English). The danger there is that his blow is unchecked, and you remain in the more-or-less the same spot.

Do you have an example of this in sparring?

I have both done it and had it done to me. No videos, unfortunately. However, I will be putting some videos up soon, I hope...so maybe I can post something at a later date.

That clearly sounds like a stab turning into a slice, much like what I'm familiar, where is the part about slicing both arms?

The proffer, followed by the rake are directed against YOU by the opponent in that case. I was showing you the window of vulnerability left open when the opponent "plucks" back his sword to "prime" a cut. Good time to slice.

-B.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

While not exactly what I'm talking about, John demonstrates some similar things in this video. Again, not what I'm talking about, but it gives a good idea of the footwork and maneuvering involved:

http://www.thearma.org/Videos/BasicsMastery.mov

[Chris Ouellet]

That video has a lot of what translates to a "break attack", an attack which breaks an opponent's attack, both defending yourself and landing an attack on the opponent at the same time, with a short displacement of the body. In general to be successful in a sparring situation I've found it requires a significant skill difference between the attacker and the person who breaks, with slow sword-speed of the attacker being a necessity. Breaks always occur after the opponent has initiated his slash.

Body displacement to avoid and anticipation is not the issue. What I'm more concerned about is the slice landing on the under part of the forearms while the opponent is raising to land a slash, which has no corollary in eastern swordsmanship as far as I know (I'm skilled, well read but not infallible). The target and timing don't jive so to speak.
The target is bad, the ulna is a bone that protects almost all of the under-forearm. The timing of following the forearm as it rises with the blade is very difficult. A break attack involves anticipating the attack and moving after it's initiated, not as it's initiated. Even with a good feel from crossing swords that's damn hard to do, human reaction time has its limits.
My point is there are lots of slices that can be done "in theory" and in sparring with simulators that may not in actuality work. Is there an example from a fight-book of this? Can you point me towards a clear description of this technique?

I clearly understand what you're saying, I still find it improbable from my experience, but again, I'm more than willing to be proven wrong. Take it easy,

Chris

[Benjamin Smith]

Chris, my own experiences differ slightly. Such attacks can be both offensive and defensive, and were taught as such. Thanks for your earlier comments by the way.

[Stacy Clifford]

I'll add to this discussion the following quote from Di Grassi, which pertains specifically to the slender cutting blades used in his "Single Rapier" section (keeping in mind that in the original Italian it's just spada, or sword, not specifically Rapier as the English later translated):

Having used this pace & reverse, whether it hit or not, the sword in the same instant is something to be drawn or slid: which drawing is profitable in this, that in giving the reverse it does both cause the weapon to cut, and make the greater blow. Wherefore it is to be understood, that all edge-blows ought to be delivered, that they may cut: for being directly given without any drawing, they cause but a small hurt.

Terminology note: In Di Grassi, a reverse is a rising blow, as opposed to a right edge blow which is downward. The reverse in the passage quoted is executed while traversing past the opponent on his right.

So basically Di Grassi here is telling us that the blade he is describing is not massive enough to cause significant damage by impact alone, and that slicing action must be added to make the edge blow more effective. I would argue that if Di Grassi considered slicing edge blows with a narrow cut & thrust sword to be effective, then similar maneuvers such as the one Brandon describes using the longsword, a broader blade much better for cutting, should be equally or even more effective.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Body displacement to avoid and anticipation is not the issue. What I'm more concerned about is the slice landing on the under part of the forearms while the opponent is raising to land a slash, which has no corollary in eastern swordsmanship as far as I know (I'm skilled, well read but not infallible). The target and timing don't jive so to speak.

I understand. We're dealing with a case of apples vs oranges, here, which means we'll never see eye-to-eye. Perhaps some time over paths will cross, and I can show exactly what I mean. But, consider this: is a swordsman, in a real, life-and-death encounter, going to be willing to hazard his arms if their is a sharp blade placed against them? I don't think I would try it, at least not without a stout jack or gambeson.

Take care.

-B.

[Chris Ouellet]

Thanks Benjamin for your comment.

No problem with sparring Brandon, I'm available any time. I'm currently in Hamilton Canada but moving to Long Island NY shortly. Not anywhere near Utah but if you're ever in the area send me a PM.

But, consider this: is a swordsman, in a real, life-and-death encounter, going to be willing to hazard his arms if their is a sharp blade placed against them? I don't think I would try it, at least not without a stout jack or gambeson.

This is purely conjecture, would a swordsman really step in with intent to slice and *maybe* cause damage as the opponent provides certain death from above?

If this is a tried tested and true technique there should be a record of it. Do none of the manuals illustrate or explicitly state to do this? If they don't, then it's likely not an effective technique and falls into the bin of "bad slicing".

[Chris Ouellet]

I would argue that if Di Grassi considered slicing edge blows with a narrow cut & thrust sword to be effective, then similar maneuvers such as the one Brandon describes using the longsword, a broader blade much better for cutting, should be equally or even more effective.

Correct me if I'm wrong Stacy but isn't Di Grassi merely describing a "draw cut"? A rising "blow" that has shear force applied? Is there a distinction between slash and slice in his work? Just from your excerpt I would expect him to say "blow" to mean slash and "draw or slide" to mean slice but I'm not familiar with the work.
Does Di Grassi talk about targets for slicing?

In fact as a general question not specifically directed at Stacy: do any of the fight-books or other manuals talk about targets for slicing?

[Sal Bertucci]

I think one good example might be the eighth technique in this video

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI ... =1&index=5


[/url]
I could see this doing serious damage with a sharpened blade.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

I think one good example might be the eighth technique in this video

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI ... =1&index=5


[/url]
I could see this doing serious damage with a sharpened blade.

Yes! Perfect! It's not from below, but it is the same idea. Roughly a quarter of the way through the vid - the dupliern bit - excellent!

Thanks, Sal!

-B.

[Stacy Clifford]

Correct me if I'm wrong Stacy but isn't Di Grassi merely describing a "draw cut"? A rising "blow" that has shear force applied? Is there a distinction between slash and slice in his work? Just from your excerpt I would expect him to say "blow" to mean slash and "draw or slide" to mean slice but I'm not familiar with the work.
Does Di Grassi talk about targets for slicing?

In fact as a general question not specifically directed at Stacy: do any of the fight-books or other manuals talk about targets for slicing?

I don't think there would be much difference in this case between a slash and a slice other than a matter of degree. I generally define a "slash" as a blow with some shear force added as you describe; you slash across a target, meaning it's part chop and part slice. I guess a pure slice would be a simple place and draw, but since Di Grassi is saying that a pure chop from the single sword of his day won't do much damage, then the slice is the more important component once contact is made, so I think it's relevant to this argument. And for the record, the more I learn of this art, the less I like the use of the word slash, because too many people have different ideas of what that is. I think chop and slice describe the basic actions more accurately, and slashing is somewhere in between.

As for targets, keeping in mind that Di Grassi states that ALL edge blows should be made with a slice, here are some examples:

"...he must turn a right edge-blow from the wrist athwart the enemy's head..."

"...and turning the same edge fetch a reverse, striking at the face of the enemy."

"...but he ought to turn his hand, and with a reverse to cut the enemy's face..."

"...in which case he may (with the increase of a slope pace) turn a reverse at the legs..."

"...the reverse is to be turned at the face..."

Those are the only ones I can find in the first four weapons of Di Grassi that specify a target, many others don't, but you can see that the face is the most popular choice and the legs are considered viable. I take a right (meaning downward) edge-blow "athwart the enemy's head" to mean the top or side of the head, though presumably this blow also threatens the face once you draw the cut down toward the low guard.

[Richard Strey]

I think one good example might be the eighth technique in this video

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI ... =1&index=5


[/url]
I could see this doing serious damage with a sharpened blade.

Yes! Perfect! It's not from below, but it is the same idea. Roughly a quarter of the way through the vid - the dupliern bit - excellent!

Thanks, Sal!

-B.

That's the way I do it too. The Schnitt physically moves the opponent's arms off to the side and/or back. Them actually being cut is secondary, as the opening provided will win you the fight (if all goes according to plan, that is...). The slice will, however, likely illicit a bit of cooperation on the opponent's part, who will be eager to move his arms, as well. The Schnitt from below works fine, too. You start it in a Hengen position contacting with the strong of your blade, slice his arms up and to the side through Kron and down on the other side into Long Point. The opponent will rotate a bit and you step around him, cutting his arms from below and above in one motion.

[Maxime Chouinard]

Body displacement to avoid and anticipation is not the issue. What I'm more concerned about is the slice landing on the under part of the forearms while the opponent is raising to land a slash, which has no corollary in eastern swordsmanship as far as I know (I'm skilled, well read but not infallible). The target and timing don't jive so to speak.

Actually it has, I've seen it a couple of times, I think it's even a common move in many aikiken styles (unless it's not the same thing you had in mind). There is one here around 2:06 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=231wpvAzGVE although it also doubles as a thrust I suppose.

I think one good example might be the eighth technique in this video

[url] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI ... =1&index=5


[/url]

I don't know how other school may call it but it's a pretty classic makiosai (wrap control). The goal is not to slice here as much as control the arms for a take-down, disarmament. There is one way to do it here around 1:02 http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=elUrjvbxeYY

Or here: http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=6Vk_AD3BI ... re=related