"Lazy" vom tag

[CalebChow]

I'm opening the can of worms again, but this has been bugging me for a while. Like usual, I'm not trying to say who's better than who (or who killed who) but just trying to understand why things are the way they are

The "lazy" vom tag has been discussed a fair amount in other threads, but I haven't seen/read up on any full analyses in criticism of the "lazy" over-shoulder vom tag.

Looking at Peter Von Danzig's shoulder vom tag, the hand and blade position looks like the "lazy" low vom tag with the hands down at the chest. I realize drawings aren't always accurate, but this one looks rather extreme to be an "illustration error" :

http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg

Personally the higher vom tag feels better to me also, but what are some of the reasons numerous other groups use the "lazy" version, other than that one picture?

[Benjamin Smith]

Yes, that does look like one, however, the vast majority look like this:

http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Goliath/62.jpg

or this: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/Mair/37.jpg

etc...

In order to take advantage of the power, speed, and variety of attacks available in the position a vom tag held over the shoulder or above the head is far superior. Holding it that low slows down attacks because of the position's biomechanics and the fact that it can't take advantage of gravity. The attacks depend far more on the wrist and don't use the more powerful muscles of the arm and shoulder. Likewise holding it that low cuts off angles on the side of the forward leg. It also starts lower meaning that it is harder to enter an overbind.

Just try throwing a schielhau or krumphau from the position and you'll find out just how weak it is. Even your basic zornhau, zwerchau, and schietelhau are inferior in power, speed, range, and variety.

I'm inclined to think that the page you showed demonstrates a transitional position.

[CalebChow]

Haha as I said I prefer the higher vom tag, precisely because of the reasons you listed (and, that's how I was taught as well)

I thought those pictures you posted are vom tag over the head and not shoulder?

I guess it only makes sense that over the shoulder would be at around the same height as over the head but...again, Danzig shows low vom tag over the shoulder while Goliath and Mair seem to show over the head. I could be wrong...someone who's studied the texts more can tell me further.

Once again, however, anyone know why the "lazy" version is insisted on in other schools? I'll try asking some of them myself, but I want to see everyone's opinion on it.

Thanks!

[Jonathan Newhall]

Personally I think it depends on your situation. In the vast majority of the time, the higher the Vom Tag the better (it is after all an offensive stance at heart, and more height means more power!)

However, "lazy" vom tag puts the sword more and more in front of your body the more "lazy" it gets - the less offensive you want to be, the lower you can hold it. Just remember that the lower the stance the lower the power. As long as you don't expect a lower held vom tag to be as effective as the higher vom tag at striking powerfully at a target, then it is a perfectly fine stance... for a more defensively minded offense.

I think ARMA tries to avoid it (like I do, generally speaking) because it teaches bad habits about the stances and what they are supposed to be used for.

[Stacy Clifford]

I realize drawings aren't always accurate, but this one looks rather extreme to be an "illustration error" :

http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg

Take a look at the pflug picture on the opposite page. His left shoulder looks like it's dislocated to down around his left nipple and the pommel of the sword is almost a foot behind his butt. Can you stand like that? I think that alone casts doubt on the accuracy of the other drawings on that page. Makes me wonder if the artist started a little too early after a late night at the tavern. I haven't seen the rest of the manuscript, but I've never heard as much controversy over any other drawings in it, so I'm wondering if this is just an outlier.

[Sam Nankivell]

To me it looks like the "lazy" vom tag is the German version of the Italian posta di donna.

If we look at Vadi's manual we can see that the Italian tradition uses both the "lazy" and non-"lazy" vom tag. These are referred to as the posta di donna and the posta de falcone.

Here is the non-"lazy" vom tag (Posta de Falcone, top right corner):


Here is the "lazy" vom tag (Posta di Donna, top left corner):


Here is another picture of the "lazy" vom tag (Posta di Donna) from Fiore Dei Liberi's Flos Duellatorum (top right corner):


Both can be used according to the Italian tradition, is this not so in the German tradition?

[CalebChow]

Take a look at the pflug picture on the opposite page. His left shoulder looks like it's dislocated to down around his left nipple and the pommel of the sword is almost a foot behind his butt. Can you stand like that? I think that alone casts doubt on the accuracy of the other drawings on that page. Makes me wonder if the artist started a little too early after a late night at the tavern. I haven't seen the rest of the manuscript, but I've never heard as much controversy over any other drawings in it, so I'm wondering if this is just an outlier.

Hahaha, I was thinking that as well. I guess the die-hard "I gotta learn it JUST LIKE the pictures show!" mentality would end up in some interesting bodily physiques.

[Randall Pleasant]

Looking at Peter Von Danzig's shoulder vom tag, the hand and blade position looks like the "lazy" low vom tag with the hands down at the chest. I realize drawings aren't always accurate, but this one looks rather extreme to be an "illustration error" :

http://www.schielhau.org/images/pvd05.jpg

You can take that image of the vom tag as literal only if you take the other three images as literal. I don't think any of us are going to dislocate our shoulder in order to stand in Pflug literally as shown in the images.

Personally the higher vom tag feels better to me also, but what are some of the reasons numerous other groups use the "lazy" version, other than that one picture?

One of the primary reasons why others follow the "Lazy" interpretation of Vom Tag is because it makes it real easy to cut in True Time. All they have to do is just push the blade out into LongPoint. You can see this all over YouTube.

But there are some problem with this interpretation. While a True Time is faster than a False Time they lose sight of their overall speed and power, which suffers greatly compared to Vom Tag over the shoulder. Due to the lack of power and reach they do not try to counter cut when performing a Zorn-to-Zorn, rather they go directly into a bind. More importantly, in order to get the True Time out of Lazy Vom Tag they have to stand in a True Place, which is why they normally start fighting much closer than do ARMA scholars. George Silver instructed not to stand in a True Place because it is almost always dangerous. In most cases if you can hit your adversary in True Time then he can hit you in True Time.

[Axel Pettersson]

for what it is worth, here is one of Mairs vom tags: http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570/images/index.html?id=00006570&fip=193.11.234.149&no=13&seite=53

To me it doesnt matter that much, only if I get too low with my hands. If you hold your vom tag like Mair do in the picture, a slight twist of the upper body helps to generate power (i.e in your stance pull back the right shoulder somewhat, if you are in right vom tag). As soon as the fight gets going you won't stand around in a guard anyway (if you are a liechtenaurian), that would be lazy.

[CalebChow]

One of the primary reasons why others follow the "Lazy" interpretation of Vom Tag is because it makes it real easy to cut in True Time. All they have to do is just push the blade out into LongPoint. You can see this all over YouTube.

But there are some problem with this interpretation. While a True Time is faster than a False Time they lose sight of their overall speed and power, which suffers greatly compared to Vom Tag over the shoulder. Due to the lack of power and reach they do not try to counter cut when performing a Zorn-to-Zorn, rather they go directly into a bind. More importantly, in order to get the True Time out of Lazy Vom Tag they have to stand in a True Place, which is why they normally start fighting much closer than do ARMA scholars. George Silver instructed not to stand in a True Place because it is almost always dangerous. In most cases if you can hit your adversary in True Time then he can hit you in True Time.

Now that is quite a useful observation for me; I never noticed that the bind occurs more frequently with Lazy Vom Tag (because I've never used it and never fought anyone who did...)

That kind of ties in with my thread on the edge smearing and the apparently increase in emphasis on binding+winding in non-ARMA videos. Thanks!

Which sources (if not all) mention the terms "true place" and "true time", if I may ask? My main source material is Meyer, and I don't recall him using those exact phrases

[CalebChow]

for what it is worth, here is one of Mairs vom tags: http://mdz10.bib-bvb.de/~db/bsb00006570/images/index.html?id=00006570&fip=193.11.234.149&no=13&seite=53

Well hey, he doesn't dislocate his shoulder with that guard!

[Jason Taylor]

One of the primary reasons why others follow the "Lazy" interpretation of Vom Tag is because it makes it real easy to cut in True Time. All they have to do is just push the blade out into LongPoint. You can see this all over YouTube.

But there are some problem with this interpretation. While a True Time is faster than a False Time they lose sight of their overall speed and power, which suffers greatly compared to Vom Tag over the shoulder. Due to the lack of power and reach they do not try to counter cut when performing a Zorn-to-Zorn, rather they go directly into a bind. More importantly, in order to get the True Time out of Lazy Vom Tag they have to stand in a True Place, which is why they normally start fighting much closer than do ARMA scholars. George Silver instructed not to stand in a True Place because it is almost always dangerous. In most cases if you can hit your adversary in True Time then he can hit you in True Time.

Now that is quite a useful observation for me; I never noticed that the bind occurs more frequently with Lazy Vom Tag (because I've never used it and never fought anyone who did...)

That kind of ties in with my thread on the edge smearing and the apparently increase in emphasis on binding+winding in non-ARMA videos. Thanks!

Which sources (if not all) mention the terms "true place" and "true time", if I may ask? My main source material is Meyer, and I don't recall him using those exact phrases

That, if I'm not mistaken, is from Silver. He's got some great stuff in there about timing and distance. Gave me a whole new view of the theoretical sophistications of the period martial arts and their masters.

Jason

[Sal Bertucci]

That's right it from Paradoxes of Defense, by George Silver

[Randall Pleasant]

Now that is quite a useful observation for me; I never noticed that the bind occurs more frequently with Lazy Vom Tag (because I've never used it and never fought anyone who did...)

That kind of ties in with my thread on the edge smearing and the apparently increase in emphasis on binding+winding in non-ARMA videos. Thanks!

Note that in the interpretations that use Lazy Vom Tag binds don't just occurs more frequently in the Zorn-to-Zorn counter, rather they occur every time because there is no attempt to cut the adversary. The really negative feature of this interpretation is that an opportunity to attack the adversary is completely removed since the the initial cut is to the sword rather than to the man. Another negative feature is that this almost always results in a edge-to-edge impact. There is yet another negative feature. In all interpretations that I know of when a counter Zorn fails to hit the adversary the swords bind in a lower hanging. But because their counter Zorn starts out so low due to the Lazy Vom Tag they bind in a very low lower hanging. Therefore, rather than a tight action their winding usually involves a very large wide movement.

[Jeremiah Backhaus]

Sam,

It seems to me that the "Posta Di Donna" as seen in these examples is more comparable to the "Zornhut." I haven't spent much time with the Italian though, don't know it (I only have poor Latin skills). I think a closer example of the "lazy" Vom Tag is the upper right in the second picture, which is actually a Kron. The biggest clue that posta di donna is not the same is that in Fiore, his head is turned with the sword behind his head (as I could see from your posted picture). With the weight on the back foot, that would indicate that one is going for a big strike (like the Zorn).

As to the use of the "high" and "low" Vom Tag, yes, in the German usage you have to use both. But, relying on the "lazy" is not going to be as effective at ending the fight the quickest way possible (in my opinion).

I would be careful in saying that a "lazy" Vom Tag always (or almost) ends in edge on edge. That can be controlled very easily. In my experience, the "lazy" does bring about binden und winden, which is not necessarily a bad thing...

My thoughts, free, for nothing. And worth every penny.

-Jeremiah (SA)

To me it looks like the "lazy" vom tag is the German version of the Italian posta di donna.

If we look at Vadi's manual we can see that the Italian tradition uses both the "lazy" and non-"lazy" vom tag. These are referred to as the posta di donna and the posta de falcone.

Here is the non-"lazy" vom tag (Posta de Falcone, top right corner):


Here is the "lazy" vom tag (Posta di Donna, top left corner):


Here is another picture of the "lazy" vom tag (Posta di Donna) from Fiore Dei Liberi's Flos Duellatorum (top right corner):


Both can be used according to the Italian tradition, is this not so in the German tradition?