Based on test cuts, is "edge smearing" effective?

[Erick Rice]

HI, not sure if this was already covered...

In " Fighting with the German longsword" Christian Tobler, chpt 4. pg 71 end of paragraph 3, Mr. Tobler states that " ..... - a slice all the way around his wrists - is called Hende Drucken ( The pressing of the hands ) and is ranked among Master Liechtenauer's 17 primary techniques ( the Hauptstucke ).

Also, HS 3227 a ( Dobringer Fechtbuch ) translated/ transcribed by David Lindholm , 23R ( Also mentioned in 36V) Paragraph 1. List it as pressing the hands, ( Hende drukt).

I was bored so thought I would do some reading.

Thanks

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

I re-read your post Richard and I'm trying to understand the Meyer techniques. Let's look at the first one first.

After you have caught your opponent's sword with the bind, you shall remain there to feel whether he intends to withdraw from the bind or strike around. As soon as he strikes around, then persue him with the long edge on his arm; push him back from you with your forte or shield, let your weapon fly and cut to the nearest opening before he can recover.

As you describe it correct me if I'm wrong:
1. Bind.
2. Opponent attempts to strike around the bind
3. Follow opponent's attempted strike placing sharp forward section of the sword lengthwise on the opponent's arm and maintaining the forte close or on to the opponent's wrist
4. Forcibly pushing with the dull section on the opponent's wrists, negating his counter-attack and slice lengthwise
5. Cut down the opponent with a slash before he recovers from either the push or the slicing wound.

I say "lengthwise" because I can't readily visualise getting a cross position with both the sharp end of the sword touching the arm and being able to substantially push with the forte or shield.

By George, I think you've got it!

-B.

[Chris Ouellet]

By George, I think you've got it!
-B.

The move makes perfect sense then Brandon, whether you meant to or not your original description which I've now re-read doesn't explicitly include the all-important step of forcibly pushing to negate the counter-attack slash. That step is critical - otherwise you're trying to oppose a slash with a slice and that's inviting death , you can't merely "follow" the arms to stifle the attack. Forcefully pushing the opponent to disrupt attack and then slicing is perfectly legitimate technique in my books. The timing is "right".
The target may/may not be great but the timing at least is right and the old texts have emphasis on a proper follow-up slash/cut. All is well.

[CalebChow]

Nice discussion guys, thanks for the feedback.

How would schnitts and other slices fare against leather gloves and gambesons, then? My opening post focused on blade vs bare skin, so here I'm "upping the difficulty."

My initial guess is that the techniques would still work as intended, just without the "bonus damage" but...I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

Again, great discussion. Keep it up.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Nice discussion guys, thanks for the feedback.

How would schnitts and other slices fare against leather gloves and gambesons, then? My opening post focused on blade vs bare skin, so here I'm "upping the difficulty."

My initial guess is that the techniques would still work as intended, just without the "bonus damage" but...I don't know, which is why I'm asking.

Again, great discussion. Keep it up.

It can depend, Caleb. Here's where we get into serious conjecture. Slices don't fare too well against fabric, particularly thick\resilent (sp?) stuff like leather or canvas. It might get through...but the damage is gonna be negilible at best. Full cuts don't fare well against jacks or gambesons, either, (though damage dealt by blunt trauma...metal contacting flesh and bone at high velocity is gonna deal serious damage...). Against a padded jack, or gambeson, or leather...you're going to want to cut with the point of the sword. The tip bites through pretty reliably, but the actual edge - not so much.

-B.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

The move makes perfect sense then Brandon, whether you meant to or not your original description which I've now re-read doesn't explicitly include the all-important step of forcibly pushing to negate the counter-attack slash.

Isn't it immediately implied, though? I can't imagine any other way of doing the technique as per Brandon's original description without strongly and deliberately pushing the blade against the opponent's forearms.

[Chris Ouellet]

Isn't it immediately implied, though? I can't imagine any other way of doing the technique as per Brandon's original description without strongly and deliberately pushing the blade against the opponent's forearms.

Pushing the blade against the opponent's forearms is not sufficient, actually pushing the forearms to destabilise and negate the counter-attack is. Verbiage more than anything and lack of a proper demonstration.

[Chris Ouellet]

How would schnitts and other slices fare against leather gloves and gambesons, then? My opening post focused on blade vs bare skin, so here I'm "upping the difficulty."

Tough question, I know of only my person tests which I can't offer video evidence for as I said in my first post on this topic. My answer is slices fare "poorly".
I've already shown you in a previous thread the tests done at myarmoury.com where even slashes can fare poorly against fabric, though jack is tougher than gambeson and leather.
You can completely forget gaping wounds and nice quick fluid motions to cause damage. Having the sword get caught by imperfections in the material are the name of the game. Picture "first blood" rather than real damage.

I again one day plan to investigate this scientifically with proper video documentation.

[LafayetteCCurtis]

Isn't it immediately implied, though? I can't imagine any other way of doing the technique as per Brandon's original description without strongly and deliberately pushing the blade against the opponent's forearms.

Pushing the blade against the opponent's forearms is not sufficient, actually pushing the forearms to destabilise and negate the counter-attack is. Verbiage more than anything and lack of a proper demonstration.

Well, how do you push the blade against the opponent's forearms without deliberately pushing the forearms back as well? I'm genuinely puzzled.

[Chris Ouellet]

Well, how do you push the blade against the opponent's forearms without deliberately pushing the forearms back as well? I'm genuinely puzzled.

Pushing the blade against the forearms is not the same as pushing the forearms back. In one case the blade rests firmly against the forearms but may not be sufficient to actually move them. In that case your opponent's attack is primed and ready, when you're done your slice he lands a slash. If you push sufficiently hard to move the forearms back, you're destabilising and disrupting the counter-attack.
I've since tried this is sparing and it's very difficult to do, I havn't managed it yet. It may require an opponent of poor skill, "cloddish blows" and/or really particular situation.

[Richard Strey]

The situation (described by Meyer) is such that you have an opponent who is overpowering you with "quick devices" and is driving you back. Anything but poor skill or cloddish blows. Quite the opposite. You are then (in a situation where you are in the Nach) advised to stay in the bind and *feel* if the opponent leaves the bind to strike around to another opening. If so, you are told to fall onto his arms with your long edge, slice, push him away that he "dammels" (is dazed, disrupted in his movements) and before he recovers, strike to an opening.
Tactile feedback provides you with a much quicker way to read the opponent's intent and you are in a position where you can actually go for the arms. If you are out of range, it isn't going to work.

[Chris Ouellet]

Richard, that's for a slice in general [Schneiden], but in your own post (p.66 in Forgeng's translation)
"For example, if an opponent overruns you with cloddish blows..." then [Hendtrucken], pressing hands. So it's definitely used against poor skill and cloddish blows at least some of the time if he's using that as an example.

Incidentally part of my interest in HEMA is the emphasis on binding, which in my style we essentially never do. The sword fighting we do at high levels of skill is a game of inches, we rarely bind, grapple or get close (much unlike say kendo). Not that we never try, it's just with good distance and sword control getting into such close ranges is exceedingly difficult without eating 2-3 slashes.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Richard, that's for a slice in general [Schneiden], but in your own post (p.66 in Forgeng's translation)
"For example, if an opponent overruns you with cloddish blows..." then [Hendtrucken], pressing hands. So it's definitely used against poor skill and cloddish blows at least some of the time if he's using that as an example.

Incidentally part of my interest in HEMA is the emphasis on binding, which in my style we essentially never do. The sword fighting we do at high levels of skill is a game of inches, we rarely bind, grapple or get close (much unlike say kendo). Not that we never try, it's just with good distance and sword control getting into such close ranges is exceedingly difficult without eating 2-3 slashes.

Well, to be honest, I really didn't think I'd have to spell it out for ya. Guess there are some very fundamental, underlying differences between our two respective arts. In any event, binding properly takes a lot of time to get down with any degree of appreciable effectiveness (particularly if you have to "unlearn" what I, as a HEMA practioner, would consider "bad habits;" your "game of inches," for example.) Fighting from the bind is arguably the cornerstone of medieval\Renaissance swordplay. Vadi says as much: "The Art of the Sword consists only in crossing (i.e., binding), putting both strikes and thrusts in the right place, and bringing war to those who oppose you." Fiore's treatises demonstrate the utility of the incrossada, or the "crossing\binding." The German masters plasce great emphasis upon it, as well. I hate to be a cynic, here, but...if you don't get it now...perhaps you never will. You never know, though...keep trying.

Good luck.

-B.

[Chris Ouellet]

Hmm... this discussion is taking a side-track, for what it's worth I'll pursue it for a couple posts but if we really want to discuss it we should probably open another thread.

Brandon, how much binding do you see in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJT1_1C2 ... 1&index=74

Or these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZWuNd- ... 1&index=13

Binding and techniques from the bind may appear prominently in HEMA but let's not be presumptuous and think plain slashes and stabs with distance control and timing are not the mainstay of any real swordfighting. Stage play where swords cross incessantly often without purpose is not realistic and rapidly breaks down in actual practice - it's a game of inches whether you like it or not against a good opponent.
One of the reasons I like ARMA is the accurate portrayal of sparing, which is close but not exactly what I do in my martial art due to the differences in the weapons and stances. I don't care for your premature cynicism, my interest is genuine.

[Brandon Paul Heslop]

Hmm... this discussion is taking a side-track, for what it's worth I'll pursue it for a couple posts but if we really want to discuss it we should probably open another thread.

Brandon, how much binding do you see in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJT1_1C2 ... 1&index=74

Or these?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNja00FNyeg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bZWuNd- ... 1&index=13

Binding and techniques from the bind may appear prominently in HEMA but let's not be presumptuous and think plain slashes and stabs with distance control and timing are not the mainstay of any real swordfighting. Stage play where swords cross incessantly often without purpose is not realistic and rapidly breaks down in actual practice - it's a game of inches whether you like it or not against a good opponent.
One of the reasons I like ARMA is the accurate portrayal of sparing, which is close but not exactly what I do in my martial art due to the differences in the weapons and stances. I don't care for your premature cynicism, my interest is genuine.

Binding - true binding - is nothing like the stageplay blade-pressing you allude to. It is most often a matter of less than a second. With regards to the videos, there are several instances where a bind does in fact take place. Regarding my last point about pressing the hands, Vincent is quite right - the very technique implies pushing - I can't remember how many times I wrote "vigorously, " as in place the blade on the wrists\forearms with force, and then slash as you move to the side. I really can't think of a way to put it more plainly, but the meaning never quite got across. The technique AS I DESCRIBED it is impossible without "pushing." And this happens FROM THE BIND.

Any attack that immediately follows a deflection with intense blade-to-blade contact is from the bind. The bind can also be used pre-emptoively, stiffeling (sp?) an attack before it comes into its power, and followed instantly with a counter attack. I believe the reason for this lack of understanding is your previous, obviously dedicated, training in and devotion to your practiced art. I have furnished you with a qoute from a master (Vadi), which explains the importance of the bind in HEMA, and yet you apparently think you know better? It's at this point that I shrug and go "Okay...that was a collossal waste of my time."

I have no doubt your interest is sincere, but I'm not going to kid myself
that attempting to explain any of this to you will make any difference. I am through attempting to explain the finer nuances to an individual with a series of ingrained habits belonging to another sword form. It's just simply a waste of my time and yours.

Once again, good luck and all the best.

-B.

EDIT - Call me a masochist, but: some of the problems you may be experiencing could be down to the type of sword simulator you are using. Swords not cruciform in shape, with a large, ample crossguard - i.e., your typical longsword - are never going to be able to bind as effectively as cruciform swords. The cross comes into play on so many levels in HEMA.