All scarred up...an opinion question

[Dylan Asbury]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that most if not all of you out there have amassed a small collection of scars, scratches and otherwise semi-visible statements to your swordsmanship. I was reading a little a little about the German dueling fraternities on another website (I won't say where until later). The story was that the gentlemen would allow or otherwise intend to recieve a slash to the face and bear a scar. Now, the general consensus as far as i read before i turned away in revulsion was either A: "glory doesn't last, you'd be a fool to take it" or B: "oh, men!"
Now, I'd like to know what you, the posters from Arma or where ever else think. The question being: In what light do you view the scars you and others have obtained by WMA/MMA/Wrestling? Anyone who has recieved a scar in a combat sport is encouraged to answer! I'll go on and state my humble opinion later. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on our "occupational necessity"

[Randall Pleasant]

What you are asking about is mensur dueling scars. It is a macho tradition among German college fraternities that has nothing to do with real swordsmenship. Their goal is to get a scar. Think of it as school boy bragging rights.

Since real swordsmenship is about not getting scars ARMA does not engage in such foolishness.

[Mike Cartier]

i have several scars from HEMA and several from MMA/jiuJitsu.

Generally i am proud of them, you do not seek to get the scars but when they happen you live with it. Injuries are to be avoided not cultivated.

[Stacy Clifford]

Reminds me of what I tell people about my dented, scratched, beat-up old buckler: it's ugly so that I'm not.

[Parker E. Brown]

I have to remind members of my study group that the objective of sword combat (or any combat for that matter) is to give the other guy scars. However, I'm sure that there were many grizzled veterans that wore their scars with pride. There has been some fascinating finds at the site of the battle of Towton (1468 English Wars of the Roses) that shows excavated skulls that show healed wounds on the skeletal remains of some of those killed at the battle. Towton was very bloody, approximately 28,000 casualties and it's a veritable treasure trove of osteopathic evidence of historical wounds. There's a site on it (http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depa ... rp/towton/) that gives some information.

[Dave Rogers]

I would suppose that hundreds of years ago when medical practice wasn't quite so advanced (medieval barbers and leeches come to mind...) any injury grievous enough to leave a scar might also be reasonably likely to become septic and (eventually, if not immediately) possibly fatal. So to have survived such a wound and have the scar to show for it was perhaps touted as some kind of evidence of strength of one's constitution. But I'm just making this up as I go along.

Dave
ARMA Seattle

[Derek Wassom]

[Jon Pellett]

This day is call'd the feast of Crispian.
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when this day is nam'd,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian.'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars,
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispian's day.'

I'm pretty sure it's normal to be proud of your scars. People are typically proud even of stupid things they did, so long as they survived them.

[Cooper Braun]

I think that most scars are a sign you did something stupid/cool and got away with it. I have a ton from kayaking (granite is not you best friend) and a lot of them have stories. on the other hand I have a ton from work (metal work is killer on the arms) and mostly they get asked about and there is no story (jagged steel and slag burns get old after number one). But in a world were most soldiers (levy type as being referred to in the Shakespeare, so War of the Roses) maybe saw three battles at most and saw a ton of people die, A scar was a mark of pride that says "I was there, we won(hopefully), I didn't die", I think that is worth something. As to the scars I've gained for getting hit with sticks (sparring) I think of them as part of the experience.
For the German dueling societies, its not dueling its fighting for scars, and as a friend of mine (biker guy) put it "If they want to fight me by having me hit them in the head, who am I to complain?!"

[Jason Taylor]

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that most if not all of you out there have amassed a small collection of scars, scratches and otherwise semi-visible statements to your swordsmanship. I was reading a little a little about the German dueling fraternities on another website (I won't say where until later). The story was that the gentlemen would allow or otherwise intend to recieve a slash to the face and bear a scar. Now, the general consensus as far as i read before i turned away in revulsion was either A: "glory doesn't last, you'd be a fool to take it" or B: "oh, men!"
Now, I'd like to know what you, the posters from Arma or where ever else think. The question being: In what light do you view the scars you and others have obtained by WMA/MMA/Wrestling? Anyone who has recieved a scar in a combat sport is encouraged to answer! I'll go on and state my humble opinion later. Look forward to hearing your thoughts on our "occupational necessity"

I've heard of this silly "dueling" sport, too. Supposedly, they thought you weren't tough if didn't have any scars. I always figured, what if you just don't get hit?

I've gotten way more scars from woodworking wasters and building equipment than from sparring, but I do have some swollen joints and dings that seem semi-permanent. I've had a bump on the right side of my right leg, sort of between the shin and the calf, that rises up when I point my toes. A friend of mine used his heel to block a low front kick I was throwing at him. Proved to me the effectiveness of the well-timed aggressive block. Couldn't stand right on it for the rest of the bout. And weirdly, it's still there, like two years later.

Jason

[Michael Olsen]

Hello Jason!

I always figured, what if you just don't get hit?

In short, so long as you fought well, it doesn't matter at all.

In long...

I've read through this thread and was a little disturbed at what I saw - apparently some misunderstandings have taken root and gone unchecked.

Anyone I've spoken to who actually took part in the Studentenverbindungen and participated in one or more Mensuren seems to look at this in a vastly different light than is represented here. They do not view the outcome (i.e. win or loss, Schmiss or not) as the important part - indeed, they don't even consider it a "duel". It is the "test of character" so to speak, to stand one's ground with a sharp blade and fence against an adversary without flinching to show character and a stoic nature.

The "goal" of fighting a Mensur is not to get a scar or to get all cut up - it may have been at some point in time, but doesn't seem to factor in much at all in the past couple of decades. All in all, it is a right of passage and a way to "cultivate character".

Now, whether or not this "test of character" is deemed ridiculous is personal opinion - personally, I find most of the "hazing" or initiation rights in many other institutions - U.S. fraternities, the military, sports teams, etc. - just as bizarre.

Is it a historical martial art? No. Is it useful for self-defense? Not really. But Mensur practitioners don't think otherwise. Just as HEMA practitioners can and do get scarred up during practice and play, but view it more or less as a side effect (and more often than not, they wish it hadn't happened because it will impair their training), so do Mensur participants.

I realize that this understanding comes from speaking to various individuals from a couple of the fraternities that participate in Mensur. As with anything, I'm sure there are some individuals (and likely some groups of individuals) that approach the idea differently and more extremely than the majority. However, I did feel that with people making comments to the effect that people choose to participate in Mensur for the scar alone and so forth that I should at least provide insight from people who have actually participated.

Just as many people look at the HEMA and wonder what it is all about, and often form opinions based on poor information, we may fall victim to the same generalizations and "group-think" regarding other topics. For anyone interested in Mensur I recommend The Secret History of the Sword. It has other relevant information, including bits about the Bruderschaft of the 16th Century.

Best,

Michael

[Ben Coomer]

You really should only be proud of scars when you learn how to avoid getting them from it in the first place...

Such as my right pinkie no longer extending all the way was a wonderful way to learn how to block kicks correctly.

Any time you get a group of Martial Artists together to compare scars it seems to inevitably devolve into "See how stupid I was this time." It seems more of an experience transmission than glorifying the actual scars.

[s_taillebois]

Not something worth commenting on because to do so would be pointless pride (in having done something likely to have been careless). And better not to comment because those who don't understand some of the risks to WMA or the need for discipline would go out to get scars as some weird badge of honour. Others might use such incidents as a means to restrict the art-the English for example are under some serious pressure not to have access to most edged weapons. To the extent the Royal Museum at Leeds has the NTK program (no to knifes) as a component of their public education programs.
And anyway in some larger cities there used to be a reporting requirement in emergency rooms when they treated for weapons wounds. Could be problematic to explain to some investigator, or the insurance company or some social worker.

Concerning historical treatment of wounds, the shallower wounds were treated with a mix of opiates (or close equivalents) and boiled down rabbit skins. The deeper cuts or slashes were cauterized, which did serve to close the wound but no doubt left some horrific scars. Stab wounds, tended to be very lethal due to infection and their inability to do much internal medicine.
In that case what they did was give the wounded man a foul smelling soup, and if that could be smelt through the wound...what one usually got was a blanket and last rites, if they were fortunate. The unlucky were murdered on the battlefield (as happened at Towton), or simply left to expire on the pitch.

Historically it could be an issue, in certain of the Celtic traditions kings were supposed to be without blemish. So someone who got really mutilated either had to be a very convincing orator or accept being removed from power. There's some mention of this in the older versions of Tristan and Isolde.

[Derek Noble]

I think to purposely recive a scar to the face by letting your oppoenet strike you is not only stupid, but has no honor in it. A scar recived fighting in war is the same as the Purple Heart that gets pinned to your chest. However a scar from training I think means you were not safe or you where rekless. Not that I am an exaple of safety sitting here with a few scars and a broken foot .

Take care, try not to hurt yourself to look cool

[Jaron Bernstein]

I think to purposely recive a scar to the face by letting your oppoenet strike you is not only stupid, but has no honor in it. A scar recived fighting in war is the same as the Purple Heart that gets pinned to your chest. However a scar from training I think means you were not safe or you where rekless. Not that I am an exaple of safety sitting here with a few sars and a broken foot .

Take care, try not to hurt yourself to look cool

And I type this with a thumbail broken over the cuticle. Don't block with the the fingers As others here have said, the less abuse you take, either you are getting better (if training with intent) or you are training too softly.