Claymores: size, weight and use

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Jacob Collstrup
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Claymores: size, weight and use

Postby Jacob Collstrup » Fri May 22, 2009 4:18 am

Heya,

I'm new here and this is my first post. Sadly I'm not an ARMA member yet, but I think I will be in some time! :D

On a trip to Edinburgh, Scotland I acquired a Scottish Claymore. A large 2 handed sword. The salesman told me quite a few things about it. And I sorta want to know more about it. What he told me was that it was used to cut down cavalry. So a sword designed to specifically for combat against riders on horses. Under what circumstances? I figure nothing beats a good barricade of spears against charging cavalry.

Secondly the Claymores he had seemed VERY heavy compaired to what I expected a continental European 2 hand sword to weigh. This was apparently because the sword needed to be heavy in order to cut down cavalry. Does make some sort of sense.

Thirdly I was told that the sword was usually a bit taller when standing next to the wielder. And that I (Height 175cm app.) would wield a sword roughly 185cm. Any truth to that?

I guess I want to know more about the claymores.

By the way. Sometimes when searching for 'claymore' I also get 'baskethilt claymore' and what I'd call regular broad swords. How do you tell the difference? I thought that 'Claymore' referred ONLY to the big 2 handed swords, since its gaelic for 'great sword'.

Jacob Collstrup

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Sal Bertucci
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Postby Sal Bertucci » Fri May 22, 2009 8:28 am

I'll start off by pointing you here. http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html

That should answer some of your questions.

For the height question, I'm no expert but that makes some sense to me. The purpose of a big sword was to have a BIG sword.

While I can uses for them against cavalry, I always understood that they were primarily used against polearm formations.

The naming thing is a common occurrence with swords. It's called "The ignorant name things and it sticks."

Jacob Collstrup
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Postby Jacob Collstrup » Fri May 22, 2009 1:44 pm

I read that essay loosely a couple of times. It seems to deal with continental European 2 handed great swords. The designs in the essay seems to be distinctivly different from the claymores.

So...in these forums...what do people mean when saying 'claymore'?

Jacob

LafayetteCCurtis
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Re: Claymores: size, weight and use

Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Sat May 23, 2009 12:56 am

Jacob Collstrup wrote:On a trip to Edinburgh, Scotland I acquired a Scottish Claymore. A large 2 handed sword. The salesman told me quite a few things about it. And I sorta want to know more about it. What he told me was that it was used to cut down cavalry. So a sword designed to specifically for combat against riders on horses. Under what circumstances? I figure nothing beats a good barricade of spears against charging cavalry.


Unfortunately, he's probably just making things up. Swords meant for cutting up horses doesn't seem to have featured at all in medieval and Renaissance European history; the closest we can get to that is the mention of "horse-cutting swords" in some texts from the Sung Dynasty period in China, and even then there are doubts about whether these swordsmen ever really worked as the texts said they did

The two-handed "claymore" was likely just a Scottish/Irish variant of the two-handed swords used elsewhere in contemporary Europe, and so their usage would have been pretty similar. The Wikipedia page on the two-handed sword has a surprisingly good (for Wikipedia standards) summary of the controversy regarding the subject.


Secondly the Claymores he had seemed VERY heavy compaired to what I expected a continental European 2 hand sword to weigh. This was apparently because the sword needed to be heavy in order to cut down cavalry. Does make some sort of sense.


Unfortunately again, this is probably because the sword you got isn't true to its historical models. The two-handed "claymore" had similar dimensions and construction to its continental European counterparts so it ought to weigh just like the other swords. In fact, many (or most?) blades for Scottish two-handed swords were imported from Germany and I strongly doubt that these blades would have had different characteristics from the blades the German smiths would have otherwise made for continental two-handed swords.


Thirdly I was told that the sword was usually a bit taller when standing next to the wielder. And that I (Height 175cm app.) would wield a sword roughly 185cm. Any truth to that?


It's true that two-handed swords could be a bit longer than the wielder was tall. But I don't think this was ever a hard-and-fast rule.


By the way. Sometimes when searching for 'claymore' I also get 'baskethilt claymore' and what I'd call regular broad swords. How do you tell the difference? I thought that 'Claymore' referred ONLY to the big 2 handed swords, since its gaelic for 'great sword'.


Yes, the word has been used--correctly or incorrectly--to refer to both kinds of swords. Confusing isn't it? SFI's article on the Highland Scots has some explanation about the matter. Personally I think both usages are correct and it's the writer who has the responsibility to clarify which kind of sword he/she is talking about when there's any significant possibility of confusion.

LafayetteCCurtis
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Postby LafayetteCCurtis » Sat May 23, 2009 1:03 am

BTW, Hank Reinhardt's article is a worthy read in this regard:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm

Jacob Collstrup
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Postby Jacob Collstrup » Sun May 24, 2009 3:25 am

LafayetteCCurtis wrote:BTW, Hank Reinhardt's article is a worthy read in this regard:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm


I read that one I thought it was great fun! He does have a good point about people idolizing katanas and other Japanese swords.

Jacob

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Benjamin Parker
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Re: Claymores: size, weight and use

Postby Benjamin Parker » Sun May 24, 2009 9:08 am

Jacob Collstrup wrote:
To cut down cavalry. So a sword designed to specifically for combat against riders on horses. Under what circumstances? I figure nothing beats a good barricade of spears against charging cavalry.


Here is a good link on that subject
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4221
My kingdom for a profound/insightful Signature!

Jacob Collstrup
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Postby Jacob Collstrup » Mon May 25, 2009 7:46 am

I don't know who posted that. I'm as much in the dark on that as you. I'm quoted but without proper quote tags...I sense something foul afoot. :?

Jacob


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