ARMA App and appropriate discussion ;)

[Jonathan Newhall]

Well, first of all, I'm happy to say that after the better part of a year getting to know this website like the back of my hand and some decent (I think at least) activity in this forum, I've decided to apply to ARMA. Now we will wait and see if I have a place this time around.


However, despite me being happy about that, I'm aware that this is not what this forum is designed for. Therefore, consider the actual content of this thread to consist of which variation of Vom Tag (or other high guard for the longsword) you prefer, and why (be it over the shoulder higher, lower, centered, et c.) May as well gather opinions on that one since there's so many ways to do it

[Stacy Clifford]

I find vom tag to work best when held above the shoulder with my hands about 8 inches out beside my ear on either side and the blade pointed up and back at a 45 degree angle. Every cut I want to throw from this guard flows more quickly, smoothly and powerfully in overall combination from this position than any other. I haven't seen any other way to hold it that allows you to move more efficiently in every direction without telegraphing.

[CalebSlagle]

John recently pointed out to me that it is not a good idea to stick your left elbow out when you do this guard BTW. I have been doing that without noticing.

In answering this question it should be mentioned that even though I have my favorites, its best to move around and use all the variations of Vom Tag you see in the manuals as you keep in constant motion. The age of sitting and attacking from set guards is behind us. I will however recommend that you have someone watch you and make sure you don’t pull too far back when you go to Vom Tag.

Having said that, I really like to hold Vom Tag over my head in a more vertical position than others. I think that position feels most comfortable to me because it keeps my arms out of reach as well as keeping my arms from blocking my field of vision. But I really do like Vom Tag over my right shoulder too.

[Sal Bertucci]

I like (in order) Vom Tag over the shoulder (as Stacy described), over the head( as Caleb mentioned), some combination thereof, and (very lastly) over the left shoulder.

I find the right shoulder more natural, over the head to be a bit more versatile, and I just don't like over the left shoulder for purely aesthetic and comfort reasons.

[Randall Pleasant]

Well, first of all, I'm happy to say that after the better part of a year getting to know this website like the back of my hand and some decent (I think at least) activity in this forum, I've decided to apply to ARMA. Now we will wait and see if I have a place this time around.


However, despite me being happy about that, I'm aware that this is not what this forum is designed for. Therefore, consider the actual content of this thread to consist of which variation of Vom Tag (or other high guard for the longsword) you prefer, and why (be it over the shoulder higher, lower, centered, et c.) May as well gather opinions on that one since there's so many ways to do it

Jonathan

What you want to stay away from is what I call "Lazy Vom Tag" (LVT), which is where the sword is held low in front of the chest, sometimes with the hilt as low as the waist, rather than over the shoulder as described by Stacy. From LVT it is basically impossible to make an quick, powerful, and effective cut with any reach. Many people like LVT because it is easy to make True Time cuts by just pushing out their right hand. However, these cuts are very weak and very short and they are very easily countered by someone using the full reach of their longsword. Plus, these cuts are often slow even though they are in True Time. Many people don't seem to understand that a very fast action performed in False Time is better than a very slow action performed in True Time. A very negative side-affect of LVT is that it almost always leads to edge-hacking.

[Stacy Clifford]

I like vom tag over the head too and use it often, but that seems to be one of the few guards that everyone does pretty much the same, so I didn't feel it required any explanation. And Caleb's right, keep your leading elbow down or it will make a very convenient target.

[Andy Spalding]

I did not understand the LVT guard and why people would choose it, however with the new 1.0 content applied to it, i find it to actually work fairly well.

[Stacy Clifford]

If you're going to kron as a defensive action, then sure, LVT will probably work just as well as doing the same from pflug, but the idea is to seek the vor and rain deadly blows on your opponent which he must defend himself against or die, and as Ran said, you really lose a lot of power trying to cut from LVT and you actually put your head and shoulder as obstacles in a couple of convenient paths to turn the blade for a thrust or a krumphau, forcing you to lift it off your shoulder into the proper vom tag anyway. I think it would also give you less leverage and freedom to resist having it trapped against you by something like a half-sword rush than if your hands were higher up. Anything can be made to work if you use it in the right circumstance, even LVT, but you have to evaluate what it giveth vs. what it taketh away. LVT is inefficient and inflexible compared to holding it above the shoulder.

Besides that, LVT is based on a single image which happens to be one of the worst drawings in all of the manuals, not to mention the one it's in. I'm still fairly convinced that the artist was suffering from a hangover the morning the job started.

[Randall Pleasant]

I did not understand the LVT guard and why people would choose it, however with the new 1.0 content applied to it, i find it to actually work fairly well.

If you go into a low body position with proper footwork, as John Clements teaches in the new 1.0, then it is almost impossible to be in LVT. To be in LVT you have to be standing almost straight up.

[Jonathan Newhall]

Heh, I knew LVT was poor form, was mostly wondering about over the shoulder vs. centered (both seem acceptable) in terms of preference.