Vadi: all unterhau done with false edge?

[Bob Charron]

1) In this example you identify the advantage of riversa mezana as it is described in Fiore. However, the person covering should not cover in breve, as breve is a centered posta and leaves the outside line entirely open (he will be by the cut). He should cover through a rebatter (setting aside action) or in frontale, which will entirely cover the outside line and give the person covering complete access to his opponent's outside line. Fiore shows this play, and advises the person parrying to make full use of the inside line, stepping inside and using his sword to throw the opponent.

2) Your second example correctly identifies the fact that the dritta mezana will arrive at incrosada with the point off line if the cover is stronger than the cut. The same rule holds true for the cover (not breve, but rebatter or frontale). The this play is included in Fiore, and the person cutting strikes lightly to allow the cover to over-commit, then turns his sword into the now open line, covering the line with his sword and taking his own blade in his left hand to deliver a thrust. This play is called the "punta falsa" or "punta riversa". It takes advantage of the phenomenon you recognized concerning the point at incrosada.

So Fiore saw both of these eventualities and created a play to cover the action the scholar should learn. When one realizes that all the options are included in the plays, then one has only to get very good at them and execute them when the proper circumstances manifest themselves, and learn to flow from play to play.

It's a beautiful, absolutely complete system, as he does this for hand to hand combat, knife, sword in one or two hands, armoured sword, pollaxe, spear and horseback combat. Every play teaches a concept which is part of a coherant system.

[Matt Easton]

Hi Stewart

>> how does this affect the man dritto mezzana? <<

In my opinion the mezzani from the right does finish more online because the right hand is at the top of the handle, the wrists are uncrossed and therefore the line is more true. Certainly I find it to me ok from the right anyway.

>> What does Fiore advise regarding this cut? <<

Fiore says:
"We are called Colpi Mezzani (Middle Blows), because we go in the middle of Colpi Soprani (high) and Sottani (upwards). We go with the right edge (true edge) to the right, and with the false edge to the left. And our path is from the knee to the head." (between the knee and the head)

Fiore only uses this strike once with sword in the treatise and it is a feint, which is followed up with a turn (volta) of the sword to the other side of the opponent's sword, where he goes into halfsword and thrusts.

Matt

[Matt Easton]

Hi Bob,

"This play is called the "punta falsa" or "punta riversa"."

Is 'Punta Reversa' from Pisani-Dossi Bob? In Getty it is called 'Punta Falsa' or 'Punta Corta' only.

Regards,

Matt

[Bob Charron]

Stewart,

Point taken on Vadi vs. Fiore.

Please see my post on page 6 of this thread for my explanation as to why I believe he does it this way.

[Bob Charron]

Matt wrote:
"Is 'Punta Reversa' from Pisani-Dossi Bob? In Getty it is called 'Punta Falsa' or 'Punta Corta' only. "

My bad Matt. That's what I get for working from memory. Good catch.

[Matt Easton]

Hi Stewart,

>>Is this the same as the punta false Bob is talking about? <<

Yes, we're talking about the same technique. It's at the end of the gioco largo section.

>>Does Fiore make other comments on when to use which cuts that might advise other uses of these cuts?<<

Basically it seems that fendente predominate. Sottani tend to cut back up after a fendente. Even the low guards in Fiore are mainly described as either thrusting, defending, or giving a fendente (Coda Longa)! Mezzani are just not used very often I think, as they are weaker than a fendente and you do not end up covered very well if your blade gets intercepted. The fendente on the other hand are stronger, and if they get crossed in the blade then you are also covered by them - ergo, they are safer *and* more offensive.

I think the referrence Bob made to Fiore showing a defence against a mezzani reverso may be from the Pisani-Dossi version of Fior di Battaglia, and this is something that does not appear in Getty or Morgan versions. If it is what I am thinking of, then Fiore just sticks his sword blade in the way - nothing too complicated <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />

Matt

[Matt Easton]

>>That's what I get for working from memory. Good catch.<<

No worries Bob - I actually was just wondering if it was from Pisani-Dossi as I suspect you have looked a lot more at the PD than me <img src="/forum/images/icons/smile.gif" alt="" />
What do you make of that 'defence against a reverso' in PD? It looks quite odd doesn't it?

Matt

[Guest]

Hello,
Just to help out Mr Mills with his question in the midst of all these knowledgable exchanges.
Why does Fiore Cut from left to right with the false edge?

Well in our experience at the Exiles it is for many reasons.

One of the main reasons is (if you are right handed) if you imagine yourself set up to do a cut from left to right and you make the cut with the true adge you actually lead with the hands without making your blade a threat to your opponent. Your hands lead just for the initial part of the cut but it is enough for you're opponent to close in with a cover against the hands or move offline away from your weapon just that much easier. Your blade will eventually make a threat to your opponent true edge in this cut but only when in the fully extended position.
If you make the cut false edge then you actually lead with the point the whole time the weapon is in front of you. And now if your opponent tries to move to attack or defend you are threatening him/her with the weapon the whole time, forcing them to deal with it and not take shots at you instead.

Also if you come offline to the left whilst making the cut you can actually score a nice hit to the flank of your opponent if he is in a gaurd or attacking, for example a Fendente cut can be avoided and the cut used for an attack at the same time. It may not kill him but it will give him something to think about.

If you are using a two handed sword (longsword) and you make a cut from left to right true edge then you will also have crossed hands, sometimes making it difficult to recover your composure should your weapon be defended against or your opponent do something unexpected. It also makes it difficult for you to rease your left hand for some close in plays or half swording techniques.

one other point of mention is that if you have made a cut from right to left and you have not scored a hit for whatever reason you are now on the left hand side, a false edge cut is quicker to use if you want to quickly return a blow because you dont have to reorientate you weapons edge, you just make the cut using the closest edge to your opponent (the false edge).

Hope this helps clear some things up
reagrds
Mark Berryman-The Exiles company of medievil martial artists. <img src="/forum/images/icons/cool.gif" alt="" />

[Matt Easton]

Good to see that everybody is basically singing from the same song-sheet on this.

Matt